Discussion:
Brahmanand Singh's Documentary On LoRD - Clipping
sameer parasnis
2008-01-05 11:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Friends

Check out the following link for Brahmanand Singh's Documentary clipping on LoRD at following link

http://www.indiafm.com/broadband/video/Special-Features/Qv918r90/1/Pancham-Unmixed-Mujhe-Chalte-Jaana-Hai-Excerpts.html

Can't wait to see the whole film !

Great job Brahma!

Cheers

Sameer



Sameer Parasnis
P. Box 7427
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
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Nishant Limbachia
2008-01-05 16:57:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 03:29:08 -0800 (PST)
Post by sameer parasnis
Friends
Check out the following link for Brahmanand Singh's Documentary
clipping on LoRD at following link
http://www.indiafm.com/broadband/video/Special-Features/Qv918r90/1/Pancham-Unmixed-Mujhe-Chalte-Jaana-Hai-Excerpts.html
Can't wait to see the whole film !
Great job Brahma!
Cheers
Sameer
Sameer Parasnis
P. Box 7427
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Mobile + 971 50 6242056
Awesome...I completely agree. I cannot wait to see the entire
documentary.

Thank you Brahmanandji.

----
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nishant-***@public.gmane.org
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Yogesh Patwardhan
2008-03-25 12:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I heard it first time....
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for Kishore's albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got stunned with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me the details......& then to my and your surprise, till that time I was assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a mess these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started to search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I got it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take dose of this song twice a day!!!
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is a great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell me why is it so?
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point of surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music which all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion instrument, would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that portion and comes on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly found in a song which is based on western beats.It is common in our classical music I think! Also,the brass section used in this song is equally brilliant to the RDs great brass songs which we have been already discussed in some topics.
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed by Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is it 'ahead of times' song still??
Could anyone throw some light??



Yogesh Patwardhan.


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shashirao
2008-03-27 04:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Execellent post here - DHONGEE is one completely ignored albums of
its times. But I guess that has to do much with the fate of the
movie - which sank without a trace. Those were the days of Randhir
Kapoor - his outlandish acting and dressing sense and movies like
Ponga Pandit, Ram Bharose, Chacha Bhatija, Bhanwar, Rahu Ketu, Mama
Bhanja, etc. Most of these movies were like instant noodles - but
very interesting watch in today's times.

Dhongee was produced by Sujit Kumar with Kant Kumar as the director -
the movie had all the typical masala of the 70s including the
suffering mother, the saccharine sweet sister, the college-flame
bell-bottom wearing heroine, the dhongee villian - who could very
well turn out to be the hero's wayward father, etc.

Coming to the music, my favorite is yet another obscure number:

'Wahan Chalo Jis Jagaa Koi Na Ho'. I could not get enough of
Asha's 'Yai-yai-ya-yaah's.

The antara of this song is pacy but not fast or hasty. Its smooth
skating vocals intermingling - the la-laa-la-la, etc. Its almost as
if KK and Asha are having a grand time singing for this number. This
song goes in my album which will also contain 'Kya Nazare'.

Then there is 'Tu Kaahe Rotee Hai' - a typical bhai-behana number.
What makes this song less cheesy is KK's soulful rendition.

Another interesting number in this album is the 'Woh Hai
Bahrupiyaa' - the interesting part is the young Amit Kumar's voice
is used on Premnath - a very odd choice indeed. It seems Amit was
not established as a hero's voice then - hence the generic use of
this voice in this song. But it is interesting to not one of KK-
Amit's earlier partnerships.

One thing about the KK-Amit combo - in any of their outings, Amit
has been tremendously overshadowed by KK. In fact Amit does not even
sound like his normal self - and comes across as a young immature
voice. For e.g. Kasme Vaade - 'Aati Rahengi Baharein' and Mahaan -
'Asli Kya Hai', Awaara Baap - 'Teri Umar Pachhas Ya Pachpan Ki'
come to mind.

I discovered DHONGEE as a complete album during my fortunate visit
to Toronto about 8-9 years ago. I came across this music store on
Alfred Street which still had some vinyl records laying around - all
in shrinkwrap.

I grabbed 3 copies of DHONGEE - out of which I had to open one vinyl
to listen to. The other 2 remain under extreme security in Loin's
den. Of course in this trip I also manage to harvest beauties like
Kehte Mujkho Raaja, Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi, Barood, Jaise Ko Taisa,
Buddha Mil Gaya, etc.

Sigh...good old days!!!

Loin
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I heard it first time....
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for
Kishore's albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got
stunned with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details......& then to my and your surprise, till that time I
was assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a
mess these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started
to search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I
got it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take
dose of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is a
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell me
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point of
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music
which all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion
instrument, would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that
portion and comes on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly
found in a song which is based on western beats.It is common in our
classical music I think! Also,the brass section used in this song is
equally brilliant to the RDs great brass songs which we have been
already discussed in some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed
by Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is
it 'ahead of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile. Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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shashirao
2008-03-27 04:11:30 UTC
Permalink
Execellent post here - DHONGEE is one completely ignored albums of
its times. But I guess that has to do much with the fate of the
movie - which sank without a trace. Those were the days of Randhir
Kapoor - his outlandish acting and dressing sense and movies like
Ponga Pandit, Ram Bharose, Chacha Bhatija, Bhanwar, Rahu Ketu, Mama
Bhanja, etc. Most of these movies were like instant noodles - but
very interesting watch in today's times.

Dhongee was produced by Sujit Kumar with Kant Kumar as the director -
the movie had all the typical masala of the 70s including the
suffering mother, the saccharine sweet sister, the college-flame
bell-bottom wearing heroine, the dhongee villian - who could very
well turn out to be the hero's wayward father, etc.

Coming to the music, my favorite is yet another obscure number:

'Wahan Chalo Jis Jagaa Koi Na Ho'. I could not get enough of
Asha's 'Yai-yai-ya-yaah's.

The antara of this song is pacy but not fast or hasty. Its smooth
skating vocals intermingling - the la-laa-la-la, etc. Its almost as
if KK and Asha are having a grand time singing for this number. This
song goes in my album which will also contain 'Kya Nazare'.

Then there is 'Tu Kaahe Rotee Hai' - a typical bhai-behana number.
What makes this song less cheesy is KK's soulful rendition.

Another interesting number in this album is the 'Woh Hai
Bahrupiyaa' - the interesting part is the young Amit Kumar's voice
is used on Premnath - a very odd choice indeed. It seems Amit was
not established as a hero's voice then - hence the generic use of
this voice in this song. But it is interesting to not one of KK-
Amit's earlier partnerships.

One thing about the KK-Amit combo - in any of their outings, Amit
has been tremendously overshadowed by KK. In fact Amit does not even
sound like his normal self - and comes across as a young immature
voice. For e.g. Kasme Vaade - 'Aati Rahengi Baharein' and Mahaan -
'Asli Kya Hai', Awaara Baap - 'Teri Umar Pachhas Ya Pachpan Ki'
come to mind.

I discovered DHONGEE as a complete album during my fortunate visit
to Toronto about 8-9 years ago. I came across this music store on
Alfred Street which still had some vinyl records laying around - all
in shrinkwrap.

I grabbed 3 copies of DHONGEE - out of which I had to open one vinyl
to listen to. The other 2 remain under extreme security in Loin's
den. Of course in this trip I also manage to harvest beauties like
Kehte Mujkho Raaja, Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi, Barood, Jaise Ko Taisa,
Buddha Mil Gaya, etc.

Sigh...good old days!!!

Loin
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I heard it first time....
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for
Kishore's albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got
stunned with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details......& then to my and your surprise, till that time I
was assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a
mess these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started
to search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I
got it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take
dose of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is a
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell me
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point of
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music
which all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion
instrument, would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that
portion and comes on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly
found in a song which is based on western beats.It is common in our
classical music I think! Also,the brass section used in this song is
equally brilliant to the RDs great brass songs which we have been
already discussed in some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed
by Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is
it 'ahead of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile. Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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abhishek kumar
2008-03-27 06:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi loin,
An intresting post analysing DHONGEE infact a great insight i sometimes
wonder after reading your posts that how many films you must have seen
bearing panchams music....anyways was slightly off topic i was wondering why
you didnt mention the song "Dil cheena chain churaya" ,my thoughts regarding
this song was the introductory beat was awesome and with asha putting in the
"ssssss" touch makes it most unforgettable.
correct me if am wrong.
Thanks and regards,
Abhishek Kumar
Post by shashirao
Execellent post here - DHONGEE is one completely ignored albums of
its times. But I guess that has to do much with the fate of the
movie - which sank without a trace. Those were the days of Randhir
Kapoor - his outlandish acting and dressing sense and movies like
Ponga Pandit, Ram Bharose, Chacha Bhatija, Bhanwar, Rahu Ketu, Mama
Bhanja, etc. Most of these movies were like instant noodles - but
very interesting watch in today's times.
Dhongee was produced by Sujit Kumar with Kant Kumar as the director -
the movie had all the typical masala of the 70s including the
suffering mother, the saccharine sweet sister, the college-flame
bell-bottom wearing heroine, the dhongee villian - who could very
well turn out to be the hero's wayward father, etc.
'Wahan Chalo Jis Jagaa Koi Na Ho'. I could not get enough of
Asha's 'Yai-yai-ya-yaah's.
The antara of this song is pacy but not fast or hasty. Its smooth
skating vocals intermingling - the la-laa-la-la, etc. Its almost as
if KK and Asha are having a grand time singing for this number. This
song goes in my album which will also contain 'Kya Nazare'.
Then there is 'Tu Kaahe Rotee Hai' - a typical bhai-behana number.
What makes this song less cheesy is KK's soulful rendition.
Another interesting number in this album is the 'Woh Hai
Bahrupiyaa' - the interesting part is the young Amit Kumar's voice
is used on Premnath - a very odd choice indeed. It seems Amit was
not established as a hero's voice then - hence the generic use of
this voice in this song. But it is interesting to not one of KK-
Amit's earlier partnerships.
One thing about the KK-Amit combo - in any of their outings, Amit
has been tremendously overshadowed by KK. In fact Amit does not even
sound like his normal self - and comes across as a young immature
voice. For e.g. Kasme Vaade - 'Aati Rahengi Baharein' and Mahaan -
'Asli Kya Hai', Awaara Baap - 'Teri Umar Pachhas Ya Pachpan Ki'
come to mind.
I discovered DHONGEE as a complete album during my fortunate visit
to Toronto about 8-9 years ago. I came across this music store on
Alfred Street which still had some vinyl records laying around - all
in shrinkwrap.
I grabbed 3 copies of DHONGEE - out of which I had to open one vinyl
to listen to. The other 2 remain under extreme security in Loin's
den. Of course in this trip I also manage to harvest beauties like
Kehte Mujkho Raaja, Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi, Barood, Jaise Ko Taisa,
Buddha Mil Gaya, etc.
Sigh...good old days!!!
Loin
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I
heard it first time....
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for
Kishore's albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got
stunned with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details......& then to my and your surprise, till that time I
was assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a
mess these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started
to search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I
got it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take
dose of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is a
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell me
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point of
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music
which all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion
instrument, would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that
portion and comes on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly
found in a song which is based on western beats.It is common in our
classical music I think! Also,the brass section used in this song is
equally brilliant to the RDs great brass songs which we have been
already discussed in some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed
by Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is
it 'ahead of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile. Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
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shashirao
2008-03-30 03:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi Abhishek,

I deserve a Gabbar Singh shouting "Dhikkaar Hai!!!" on myself. I guess
I was too carried away with the 'One Two Three Four Go" number - I
completely forgot 'Dil Cheena'. Of course how can one forget all those
extras Asha-Pancham put in this song - including the 'Haaye Raam Kiya
Badnaam' part.

One of these days I shall listen to the entire album and post my thoughts.

As for Pancham films - I am sure I must've seen 85-90% of his movies -
in all languages. The best part for me is that...there's at least
10-15% remaining to be discovered.

Loin
Post by abhishek kumar
Hi loin,
An intresting post analysing DHONGEE infact a great insight i sometimes
wonder after reading your posts that how many films you must have seen
bearing panchams music....anyways was slightly off topic i was
wondering why
Post by abhishek kumar
you didnt mention the song "Dil cheena chain churaya" ,my thoughts regarding
this song was the introductory beat was awesome and with asha
putting in the
Post by abhishek kumar
"ssssss" touch makes it most unforgettable.
correct me if am wrong.
Thanks and regards,
Abhishek Kumar
Post by shashirao
Execellent post here - DHONGEE is one completely ignored albums of
its times. But I guess that has to do much with the fate of the
movie - which sank without a trace. Those were the days of Randhir
Kapoor - his outlandish acting and dressing sense and movies like
Ponga Pandit, Ram Bharose, Chacha Bhatija, Bhanwar, Rahu Ketu, Mama
Bhanja, etc. Most of these movies were like instant noodles - but
very interesting watch in today's times.
Dhongee was produced by Sujit Kumar with Kant Kumar as the director -
the movie had all the typical masala of the 70s including the
suffering mother, the saccharine sweet sister, the college-flame
bell-bottom wearing heroine, the dhongee villian - who could very
well turn out to be the hero's wayward father, etc.
'Wahan Chalo Jis Jagaa Koi Na Ho'. I could not get enough of
Asha's 'Yai-yai-ya-yaah's.
The antara of this song is pacy but not fast or hasty. Its smooth
skating vocals intermingling - the la-laa-la-la, etc. Its almost as
if KK and Asha are having a grand time singing for this number. This
song goes in my album which will also contain 'Kya Nazare'.
Then there is 'Tu Kaahe Rotee Hai' - a typical bhai-behana number.
What makes this song less cheesy is KK's soulful rendition.
Another interesting number in this album is the 'Woh Hai
Bahrupiyaa' - the interesting part is the young Amit Kumar's voice
is used on Premnath - a very odd choice indeed. It seems Amit was
not established as a hero's voice then - hence the generic use of
this voice in this song. But it is interesting to not one of KK-
Amit's earlier partnerships.
One thing about the KK-Amit combo - in any of their outings, Amit
has been tremendously overshadowed by KK. In fact Amit does not even
sound like his normal self - and comes across as a young immature
voice. For e.g. Kasme Vaade - 'Aati Rahengi Baharein' and Mahaan -
'Asli Kya Hai', Awaara Baap - 'Teri Umar Pachhas Ya Pachpan Ki'
come to mind.
I discovered DHONGEE as a complete album during my fortunate visit
to Toronto about 8-9 years ago. I came across this music store on
Alfred Street which still had some vinyl records laying around - all
in shrinkwrap.
I grabbed 3 copies of DHONGEE - out of which I had to open one vinyl
to listen to. The other 2 remain under extreme security in Loin's
den. Of course in this trip I also manage to harvest beauties like
Kehte Mujkho Raaja, Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi, Barood, Jaise Ko Taisa,
Buddha Mil Gaya, etc.
Sigh...good old days!!!
Loin
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I
heard it first time....
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for
Kishore's albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got
stunned with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details......& then to my and your surprise, till that time I
was assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a
mess these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started
to search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I
got it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take
dose of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is a
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell me
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point of
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music
which all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion
instrument, would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that
portion and comes on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly
found in a song which is based on western beats.It is common in our
classical music I think! Also,the brass section used in this song is
equally brilliant to the RDs great brass songs which we have been
already discussed in some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed
by Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is
it 'ahead of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile. Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
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suwag11
2008-04-04 19:00:02 UTC
Permalink
This is one of RD's best songs. As you say, the intro with its
percussion and wind instruments and violins, is awesome. The way the
rhythm gets established at the beginning is great. And then the song
begins with an infinitesimal pause, trademark RD. Kishore and Asha
are at their best here. The way Kishore makes his entry is just
brilliant. Asha is a perfect singing partner. When I first heard this
song, I thought the way she pronounced 'Ghunghata' a bit affected,
but, over the years, has grown to love it. This song has everything:
intoxicating rhythm, cracking tune, excellent singing, and very
decent lyrics. I remember reading somewhere (it may well have been
this forum) that this is actually a folk-based tune. Folk tunes,
especially EAstern tunes, were forte of both the Burmans, more of
SDB, it is generally thought, than RD. I think RD was equally adapt
at this as his father, but such was his versatality that a song which
may well have had its roots in in folk-tunes was completely
transformed by the time he was through with it. BTW, this song was a
big hit when the film was released, although the film flopped. As
Rishi Kapur once said, RD's music was always good, no matter how the
film performed. This is an evergreen song; more than 30 years have
passed since it first came out, but it still sounds fresh. Some years
ago a re-mix of this song came out, I think it was re-mixed by Lesli
Lewis. Out of curiosity I listened to it; I must say that the re-mix
left me feeling underwhelmed. As an aside, I have listened to re-
mixes of quite a few RD songs, just to see how these songs would
sound with different orchestration: I have yet to hear a song where
I've felt the re-mix was as interesting as the original. (It probably
tells as much about my age as RD's genius).

'Dil Cheena' is another superlative songs, one of Asha's best. She
has sung it with a lot of verve. I wonder whose idea it was to add
deliberate sharp intakes at breath at strategic intervals. It
increases the pleasure of listening to this song. This song changes
its pace so often and so unpredictably, it leaves the listener in a
constant state of anticipation.

'Woh Hai Ek Baharoopiya' is the third great song from this film. RD,
IMO, is unparalled when it comes to creating a certain mood, here of
unease and suspense. I am not good at (and, therefore, don't really
care much about) instruments which are played in the background of
songs; in this song, among other things, the percussion in some of
the interludes is mind-blowing.

'One two three Go' is a terrific song, although it suffers from
pedestrian lyrics, IMO. I think the original was a Bengali song.

Finally, there is 'Tu Kaahe Roti Hai', which is a soleful song. The
tune is very melodious, and superbly sung by Kishore. This song had
also become fairly popular when the film came out.

Dhongi is an absolutely fantastic album. I know I am throwing
superlatives like confetti, but in my defence I am talking about one
of my all-time favourite albums, dominated by my favourite singers:
Kishore and Asha.

Finally, Dhongi was produced or directed (or both) by one Kantkumar.
RD gave music to another film of his, I think: 'Professor Ki
Padosan', which was a long delayed film which was released I think
after RD's death. The music of that film was not as good.

Ajay
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I heard it first time....
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for Kishore's
albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got stunned
with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details......& then to my and your surprise, till that time I was
assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a mess
these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started to
search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I got
it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take dose
of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is a
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell me
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point of
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music which
all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion instrument,
would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that portion and comes
on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly found in a song which
is based on western beats.It is common in our classical music I
think! Also,the brass section used in this song is equally brilliant
to the RDs great brass songs which we have been already discussed in
some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed by
Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is it 'ahead
of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------

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shashirao
2008-04-05 04:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Ok...I am listening to this Asha Puja LP - which seems to be from
the era of Dhongee, Kehte Hain Mujhe Raja and Nikamma.

After listening to following 4 Puja numbers that were later used in
Hindi:
1. Mohuaay Jomechhe Aaj Mou Go - which became - jiyaa meN toofaan
jagaake saiyaaNjee jaao naa re haay (KHMR)
2. Pora Banshi Shunle E Mon - which became - liyo naa baaboo tanik
peeyo naa (KHMR)
3. Chalo Chole Jai - which became - 1-2-3 Go (Dhongee)
4. Sandhya Belay Tumi Ami - which became - Tere Bina Ik Pal Jiya
Jaaye Na (Nikamma)

I have concluded this must be the best period for the Pancham - Asha
partnership. Most of the romantic numbers were rendered by a
confident and dulcet Asha - at her prime voice.

And of course there is Kishore Kumar - always in his prime -
ok..that's the image we like to keep.

I am almost tempted to call the period between 1971 thru 1979 as
the "Romantic Era" - for Pancham - with the most excellent
experimental albeit matured and nourished output.

I am also convinced that the Bengali puja albums were not only major
grooming grounds for Pancham's tunes - but they also contributed
significantly to the resulting Hindi output.

If the Puja setup was more intimate with few instruments, the tunes
were fresh and have a typical Pancham-Asha flavor to it. When we
move to the Hindi film version, one finds the tunes much
nourished/polished, longer but well-rehearsed interludes, not many
slips or extempores from the singers - a certain commercialism maybe
perhaps due to considerations for the picturisation.

Anyways...back to Dhongee:

Coming back to my favorite - 'Wahan Chalo 1-2-3 Go' and its 'Chalo
Chole' counterpart - I simply cannot decide which is better.

The Bangla version has Pancham for the male vocals. And he also
indulges with Asha in crooning in parallel. So when Asha's singing
the antara line, Pancham is humming/crooning in parallel. Great
effect.

In the Dhongee version, I find Asha seems to be more creative and
experimental with the song. Maybe because she already knows the song
better? But we do have the interesting diversions in the interludes
where they decide 'Chalo Mazaa Karte Hain', etc.

Coming to 'Dil Cheena' this is like 2 songs in one. It starts with a
folkish beats (almost Pahadi/Nepali such) but has this manic fast
tune in the antaras that is mind-boggling. I tried writing down the
antaras - but Asha's speed leaves my typing panting.

Another cute phrase I like in the song is how Asha is made to
say "Taine" rather than "Tune" throughout the song - giving it a
north Indian - almost Himachal Pradesh flavor. I had some neighbours
who were Punjabis from HP - and I remember they always
saying 'Taine' instead of 'Tune'.

Coming to the manic antara - the first 2 lines are sung twice in a
frenzy - on the 2nd turn we have the next line sung which bridges
back to the folkish tune. For instance the line 'Gussa Bhi Kaam Na
Aaya' - brings the tune back to the Dil Cheena part.

And yes...as you mention...the sss...sss...effect is quite
prominent. But also notice the use of claps in the first
interlude...most of the rhythm is in claps and guitars.

Coming back to my favorite - 1-2-3 go...some more quaint things
about this song:

It has a very James Bondish feel to it especially the dramatic
guitar start. Also is it just me or does Asha hesitate/mumble her
first line...Wahan Chalo...then something that sounds like "Jis
Jagah".

Also check out how the bass and trumpets follow the singers in the
antaras. For instance...<bass>Dhoondho Tanhaai..Kahin Baji
Shehnai..<pa-paa-pa-paah> Koi Hoga To Hogi Basi Rusvai<trumpet
signoff>

The antara is sung by each singer...but the bass, trumpet music
following them is different and distinct. For instance...the first
time the antara's sung - it ends with a trumpet.

I also like the nice jugalbandi between violins, trumpets and
guitars - after Asha does her 'Bachaao' routine.

I am not sure if it is the raciness, the following trumpets or the
bass that endears this song to me - but still my favorite.

Lots been written on 'Hai Re Hai Tera Ghunghtaa' - so here's my
extra few cents:

First - the interlude is very familar to Sholay 'Jab Tak Hai Jaan'
theme. The massive brass section used in this song is awesome.

And what is that dog whining (or door opening) sound in the first
interlude?

Also...one of those long lyrics from Majrooh - where the antara
lines are not repeated. Kudos to Pancham for composing this long
line as if it was a repeating antara lines.

As for lyrics...the line 'Madhosh Mein...Khamosh Tum...Kaise Koi
Baat Ho...Beech Mein Aaye Tera Ghunghtaa' sums up the mood well.

And by the 3rd antara I am also reminded of the 'Yeh Duniya Ghoom
Rahi Hai' from Yeh To Kamaal Ho Gaya.

Finally the 'Woh Hai Ek Behrupiyaa' is nothing but a festival of
dholaks, drums, Iktaras, dholki and that rajasthani string
instrument used in 'Kya Hua Tera Vaada'.

And a very surprising and bold outing by the madal - especially how
it always follows the first 2 lines of the mukhada.

Is it bagpipes before the 2nd antara? 'Suljah Di Aankhon Ne Dil Ki
Uljhan?

And Amit definitely sounds very raw, young and nasal in his first
outing with KK/Asha. Need to see the movie on how Premnath pulls off
with Amit's voice.

Ok...too much rambling...I must not type while and after listening
to the songs - too much insipid details. Its almost like a Dhongee
For Dummies guide for the song listener. I will stick to writing
stuff from memory.

Loin
Post by suwag11
This is one of RD's best songs. As you say, the intro with its
percussion and wind instruments and violins, is awesome. The way the
rhythm gets established at the beginning is great. And then the song
begins with an infinitesimal pause, trademark RD. Kishore and Asha
are at their best here. The way Kishore makes his entry is just
brilliant. Asha is a perfect singing partner. When I first heard this
song, I thought the way she pronounced 'Ghunghata' a bit affected,
but, over the years, has grown to love it. This song has
intoxicating rhythm, cracking tune, excellent singing, and very
decent lyrics. I remember reading somewhere (it may well have been
this forum) that this is actually a folk-based tune. Folk tunes,
especially EAstern tunes, were forte of both the Burmans, more of
SDB, it is generally thought, than RD. I think RD was equally
adapt
Post by suwag11
at this as his father, but such was his versatality that a song which
may well have had its roots in in folk-tunes was completely
transformed by the time he was through with it. BTW, this song was a
big hit when the film was released, although the film flopped. As
Rishi Kapur once said, RD's music was always good, no matter how the
film performed. This is an evergreen song; more than 30 years have
passed since it first came out, but it still sounds fresh. Some years
ago a re-mix of this song came out, I think it was re-mixed by
Lesli
Post by suwag11
Lewis. Out of curiosity I listened to it; I must say that the re-
mix
Post by suwag11
left me feeling underwhelmed. As an aside, I have listened to re-
mixes of quite a few RD songs, just to see how these songs would
sound with different orchestration: I have yet to hear a song
where
Post by suwag11
I've felt the re-mix was as interesting as the original. (It
probably
Post by suwag11
tells as much about my age as RD's genius).
'Dil Cheena' is another superlative songs, one of Asha's best. She
has sung it with a lot of verve. I wonder whose idea it was to add
deliberate sharp intakes at breath at strategic intervals. It
increases the pleasure of listening to this song. This song
changes
Post by suwag11
its pace so often and so unpredictably, it leaves the listener in a
constant state of anticipation.
'Woh Hai Ek Baharoopiya' is the third great song from this film. RD,
IMO, is unparalled when it comes to creating a certain mood, here of
unease and suspense. I am not good at (and, therefore, don't
really
Post by suwag11
care much about) instruments which are played in the background of
songs; in this song, among other things, the percussion in some of
the interludes is mind-blowing.
'One two three Go' is a terrific song, although it suffers from
pedestrian lyrics, IMO. I think the original was a Bengali song.
Finally, there is 'Tu Kaahe Roti Hai', which is a soleful song. The
tune is very melodious, and superbly sung by Kishore. This song had
also become fairly popular when the film came out.
Dhongi is an absolutely fantastic album. I know I am throwing
superlatives like confetti, but in my defence I am talking about one
of my all-time favourite albums, dominated by my favourite
Kishore and Asha.
Finally, Dhongi was produced or directed (or both) by one
Kantkumar.
Post by suwag11
RD gave music to another film of his, I think: 'Professor Ki
Padosan', which was a long delayed film which was released I think
after RD's death. The music of that film was not as good.
Ajay
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I
heard it first time....
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for
Kishore's
Post by suwag11
albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got stunned
with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details......& then to my and your surprise, till that time I was
assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a mess
these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started to
search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I got
it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take dose
of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is a
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell me
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point of
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music which
all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion instrument,
would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that portion and comes
on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly found in a song
which
Post by suwag11
is based on western beats.It is common in our classical music I
think! Also,the brass section used in this song is equally
brilliant
Post by suwag11
to the RDs great brass songs which we have been already discussed in
some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed by
Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is
it 'ahead
Post by suwag11
of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile.
Post by suwag11
Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------

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suwag11
2008-04-05 06:50:34 UTC
Permalink
As expected a very informative post. Some random thoughts: I have not
heard very many of RD's Bengali creations; I'd love to listen to the
Bengali counterpart of '1,2,3 Go': It is this bit ('1,2,3 Go') that I
find offputting in the Hindi version. Surely, the lyricist could have
thought of some better words than these to fit the tune. (I am
assuming that the Bengali song came first, which means the Hindi song
was 'tune first, lyrics later' type.) I agree with you, having heard
a few Bengali-Hindi combinations, that the orchestartion is different
in the two versions. In Hindi, the orchestration is more lush,
whereas there is, as you say, a personal feel to the Bengali songs.
The Bengali versions of 'Do Nainon Me' and 'Maine Tumko Piya', sung
by Pancham himself, for example, have (relatively) sparse
orchestration. After listening to these songs I can't help feeling
that RD really should have sung more in Hindi. He apparently did not
consider himself to be a professional singer, and, barring a few
exceptions, mostly sang item-type songs in Hindi, using some or the
other gimmick. While almost all of these songs became hugely popular,
he could and should have sung more songs in Hindi in his natural
voice. Coming back to 'one, two, three Go', Amit K's singing is a big
letdown for me. He is simply not upto scratch compared with Kishore.
Indeed, till almost the mid-eighties, Amit K seems to struggle to
sing in tune. To me it says a lot about Pancham that he still managed
to make the songs of Love Story, Teri Kasam, Lovers etc. immensely
listenable. Romance is the only film from that period (early
eighties) where Amit K seems resistant to all of RD's efforts to make
him sing in tune, and it shows. He was much better in the second half
of that decade when, after Kishore's death, RD seemed to have picked
him as his number one male singer. He is considerably better, I
think, in Rama O Rama, Chor Pe Mor, Dost, Aag Se Khelenge etc.
Interestingly he seems to ape RD's singing style in many of these
songs. Check out 'Ek To Jungle' from Dost. I wonder whose idea was
it? Anyway, it is probably a topic for a seperate thread.

BTW I don't think the lyricist of Dhongi was Majrooh; it was Anand
Bakshi IIRC. Anand Bakshi has done a very decent job here all said
and done.

Some more random observations: 'Liyo Na Baboo' from KHMR. Pancham
must have been thinking of this song years later when he was
composing 'Jaipur Se Nikli Gaadi' for Guru Dev.

Pancham did not actually compose any songs for the only Maraathi film
for which he is credited as a MD, as he died before recording a
single song. Asha B then selected some of her favourites tunes into
which Marathi lyrics were fitted. One of the tunes she selected
was 'Tere Bina'.


Ajay
Post by shashirao
Ok...I am listening to this Asha Puja LP - which seems to be from
the era of Dhongee, Kehte Hain Mujhe Raja and Nikamma.
After listening to following 4 Puja numbers that were later used in
1. Mohuaay Jomechhe Aaj Mou Go - which became - jiyaa meN toofaan
jagaake saiyaaNjee jaao naa re haay (KHMR)
2. Pora Banshi Shunle E Mon - which became - liyo naa baaboo tanik
peeyo naa (KHMR)
3. Chalo Chole Jai - which became - 1-2-3 Go (Dhongee)
4. Sandhya Belay Tumi Ami - which became - Tere Bina Ik Pal Jiya
Jaaye Na (Nikamma)
I have concluded this must be the best period for the Pancham - Asha
partnership. Most of the romantic numbers were rendered by a
confident and dulcet Asha - at her prime voice.
And of course there is Kishore Kumar - always in his prime -
ok..that's the image we like to keep.
I am almost tempted to call the period between 1971 thru 1979 as
the "Romantic Era" - for Pancham - with the most excellent
experimental albeit matured and nourished output.
I am also convinced that the Bengali puja albums were not only
major
Post by shashirao
grooming grounds for Pancham's tunes - but they also contributed
significantly to the resulting Hindi output.
If the Puja setup was more intimate with few instruments, the tunes
were fresh and have a typical Pancham-Asha flavor to it. When we
move to the Hindi film version, one finds the tunes much
nourished/polished, longer but well-rehearsed interludes, not many
slips or extempores from the singers - a certain commercialism
maybe
Post by shashirao
perhaps due to considerations for the picturisation.
Coming back to my favorite - 'Wahan Chalo 1-2-3 Go' and its 'Chalo
Chole' counterpart - I simply cannot decide which is better.
The Bangla version has Pancham for the male vocals. And he also
indulges with Asha in crooning in parallel. So when Asha's singing
the antara line, Pancham is humming/crooning in parallel. Great
effect.
In the Dhongee version, I find Asha seems to be more creative and
experimental with the song. Maybe because she already knows the song
better? But we do have the interesting diversions in the interludes
where they decide 'Chalo Mazaa Karte Hain', etc.
Coming to 'Dil Cheena' this is like 2 songs in one. It starts with a
folkish beats (almost Pahadi/Nepali such) but has this manic fast
tune in the antaras that is mind-boggling. I tried writing down the
antaras - but Asha's speed leaves my typing panting.
Another cute phrase I like in the song is how Asha is made to
say "Taine" rather than "Tune" throughout the song - giving it a
north Indian - almost Himachal Pradesh flavor. I had some
neighbours
Post by shashirao
who were Punjabis from HP - and I remember they always
saying 'Taine' instead of 'Tune'.
Coming to the manic antara - the first 2 lines are sung twice in a
frenzy - on the 2nd turn we have the next line sung which bridges
back to the folkish tune. For instance the line 'Gussa Bhi Kaam Na
Aaya' - brings the tune back to the Dil Cheena part.
And yes...as you mention...the sss...sss...effect is quite
prominent. But also notice the use of claps in the first
interlude...most of the rhythm is in claps and guitars.
Coming back to my favorite - 1-2-3 go...some more quaint things
It has a very James Bondish feel to it especially the dramatic
guitar start. Also is it just me or does Asha hesitate/mumble her
first line...Wahan Chalo...then something that sounds like "Jis
Jagah".
Also check out how the bass and trumpets follow the singers in the
antaras. For instance...<bass>Dhoondho Tanhaai..Kahin Baji
Shehnai..<pa-paa-pa-paah> Koi Hoga To Hogi Basi Rusvai<trumpet
signoff>
The antara is sung by each singer...but the bass, trumpet music
following them is different and distinct. For instance...the first
time the antara's sung - it ends with a trumpet.
I also like the nice jugalbandi between violins, trumpets and
guitars - after Asha does her 'Bachaao' routine.
I am not sure if it is the raciness, the following trumpets or the
bass that endears this song to me - but still my favorite.
Lots been written on 'Hai Re Hai Tera Ghunghtaa' - so here's my
First - the interlude is very familar to Sholay 'Jab Tak Hai Jaan'
theme. The massive brass section used in this song is awesome.
And what is that dog whining (or door opening) sound in the first
interlude?
Also...one of those long lyrics from Majrooh - where the antara
lines are not repeated. Kudos to Pancham for composing this long
line as if it was a repeating antara lines.
As for lyrics...the line 'Madhosh Mein...Khamosh Tum...Kaise Koi
Baat Ho...Beech Mein Aaye Tera Ghunghtaa' sums up the mood well.
And by the 3rd antara I am also reminded of the 'Yeh Duniya Ghoom
Rahi Hai' from Yeh To Kamaal Ho Gaya.
Finally the 'Woh Hai Ek Behrupiyaa' is nothing but a festival of
dholaks, drums, Iktaras, dholki and that rajasthani string
instrument used in 'Kya Hua Tera Vaada'.
And a very surprising and bold outing by the madal - especially how
it always follows the first 2 lines of the mukhada.
Is it bagpipes before the 2nd antara? 'Suljah Di Aankhon Ne Dil Ki
Uljhan?
And Amit definitely sounds very raw, young and nasal in his first
outing with KK/Asha. Need to see the movie on how Premnath pulls off
with Amit's voice.
Ok...too much rambling...I must not type while and after listening
to the songs - too much insipid details. Its almost like a Dhongee
For Dummies guide for the song listener. I will stick to writing
stuff from memory.
Loin
Post by suwag11
This is one of RD's best songs. As you say, the intro with its
percussion and wind instruments and violins, is awesome. The way
the
Post by suwag11
rhythm gets established at the beginning is great. And then the
song
Post by suwag11
begins with an infinitesimal pause, trademark RD. Kishore and Asha
are at their best here. The way Kishore makes his entry is just
brilliant. Asha is a perfect singing partner. When I first heard
this
Post by suwag11
song, I thought the way she pronounced 'Ghunghata' a bit
affected,
Post by shashirao
Post by suwag11
but, over the years, has grown to love it. This song has
intoxicating rhythm, cracking tune, excellent singing, and very
decent lyrics. I remember reading somewhere (it may well have been
this forum) that this is actually a folk-based tune. Folk tunes,
especially EAstern tunes, were forte of both the Burmans, more of
SDB, it is generally thought, than RD. I think RD was equally
adapt
Post by suwag11
at this as his father, but such was his versatality that a song
which
Post by suwag11
may well have had its roots in in folk-tunes was completely
transformed by the time he was through with it. BTW, this song
was
Post by shashirao
a
Post by suwag11
big hit when the film was released, although the film flopped. As
Rishi Kapur once said, RD's music was always good, no matter how
the
Post by suwag11
film performed. This is an evergreen song; more than 30 years have
passed since it first came out, but it still sounds fresh. Some
years
Post by suwag11
ago a re-mix of this song came out, I think it was re-mixed by
Lesli
Post by suwag11
Lewis. Out of curiosity I listened to it; I must say that the re-
mix
Post by suwag11
left me feeling underwhelmed. As an aside, I have listened to re-
mixes of quite a few RD songs, just to see how these songs would
sound with different orchestration: I have yet to hear a song
where
Post by suwag11
I've felt the re-mix was as interesting as the original. (It
probably
Post by suwag11
tells as much about my age as RD's genius).
'Dil Cheena' is another superlative songs, one of Asha's best. She
has sung it with a lot of verve. I wonder whose idea it was to add
deliberate sharp intakes at breath at strategic intervals. It
increases the pleasure of listening to this song. This song
changes
Post by suwag11
its pace so often and so unpredictably, it leaves the listener in
a
Post by suwag11
constant state of anticipation.
'Woh Hai Ek Baharoopiya' is the third great song from this film.
RD,
Post by suwag11
IMO, is unparalled when it comes to creating a certain mood, here
of
Post by suwag11
unease and suspense. I am not good at (and, therefore, don't
really
Post by suwag11
care much about) instruments which are played in the background of
songs; in this song, among other things, the percussion in some of
the interludes is mind-blowing.
'One two three Go' is a terrific song, although it suffers from
pedestrian lyrics, IMO. I think the original was a Bengali song.
Finally, there is 'Tu Kaahe Roti Hai', which is a soleful song.
The
Post by suwag11
tune is very melodious, and superbly sung by Kishore. This song
had
Post by suwag11
also become fairly popular when the film came out.
Dhongi is an absolutely fantastic album. I know I am throwing
superlatives like confetti, but in my defence I am talking about
one
Post by suwag11
of my all-time favourite albums, dominated by my favourite
Kishore and Asha.
Finally, Dhongi was produced or directed (or both) by one
Kantkumar.
Post by suwag11
RD gave music to another film of his, I think: 'Professor Ki
Padosan', which was a long delayed film which was released I
think
Post by shashirao
Post by suwag11
after RD's death. The music of that film was not as good.
Ajay
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I
heard it first time....
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for
Kishore's
Post by suwag11
albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got stunned
with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details......& then to my and your surprise, till that time I
was
Post by suwag11
assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a
mess
Post by suwag11
these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started to
search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I
got
Post by suwag11
it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take
dose
Post by suwag11
of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this
is
Post by shashirao
a
Post by suwag11
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in
subjects
Post by shashirao
Post by suwag11
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell
me
Post by suwag11
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point
of
Post by suwag11
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one
would
Post by shashirao
Post by suwag11
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music
which
Post by suwag11
all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion
instrument,
Post by shashirao
Post by suwag11
would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that portion and
comes
Post by suwag11
on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly found in a song
which
Post by suwag11
is based on western beats.It is common in our classical music I
think! Also,the brass section used in this song is equally
brilliant
Post by suwag11
to the RDs great brass songs which we have been already discussed
in
Post by suwag11
some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less
discussed
Post by shashirao
by
Post by suwag11
Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is
it 'ahead
Post by suwag11
of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile.
Post by suwag11
Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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sagar kopardekar
2008-04-04 23:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ajay,

It seems this weekend will be packed for me. Now that you have made wonderful analysis of all these songs I have to listen this album again after a big gap... I would say. Loin already pointed out some songs including fabulous Azarbaijan whose beats are occupied my mind whole week.

Now since there is refernce of Gypsy style singing I am also thinking of listening to Carvan songs and Kaho Kaise Rasta Bhul Gaye. Ok, now if I listen to this Bade Dilwala song then how can I miss out Jeevan ke Din (Lata) from same film? I always cherish her 'muraki' taken on the word 'Bhi'....can be listened in both Antaras... Yeh Zindagi Dard bhi hai-Yeh zindagi hai Dawa 'Bhi'ssssss. The way her voice touches different notes in continuatiuon so easily. Hats off! I always refer such places like Lata has left back her 'signature'.

Now that if listen to this 'signature' then I have to listen the similar treatment given in Shalimar song - Aaina Wohi Rahta ha. At the end somewhere in some sign line she has left back same 'signature'. I need to refresh that again. Since we are taking about such 'signatures' then in continuation with that I need to listen Asha's same tratement in Ajaare Meri Zamborin...mujhe dar hai 'kya'ssssss.... somewhere after 2nd antara.

Also I have some rarely(for me) heard albums lined up. As I said I am sure this weekend will be fully packed for me.

Cheers Pancham!
Sagar


----- Original Message ----
From: suwag11 <acwagle-***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 12:00:02 PM
Subject: [Pancham] Re: Haye re haye tera ghungata-some thoughts

This is one of RD's best songs. As you say, the intro with its
percussion and wind instruments and violins, is awesome. The way the
rhythm gets established at the beginning is great. And then the song
begins with an infinitesimal pause, trademark RD. Kishore and Asha
are at their best here. The way Kishore makes his entry is just
brilliant. Asha is a perfect singing partner. When I first heard this
song, I thought the way she pronounced 'Ghunghata' a bit affected,
but, over the years, has grown to love it. This song has everything:
intoxicating rhythm, cracking tune, excellent singing, and very
decent lyrics. I remember reading somewhere (it may well have been
this forum) that this is actually a folk-based tune. Folk tunes,
especially EAstern tunes, were forte of both the Burmans, more of
SDB, it is generally thought, than RD. I think RD was equally adapt
at this as his father, but such was his versatality that a song which
may well have had its roots in in folk-tunes was completely
transformed by the time he was through with it. BTW, this song was a
big hit when the film was released, although the film flopped. As
Rishi Kapur once said, RD's music was always good, no matter how the
film performed. This is an evergreen song; more than 30 years have
passed since it first came out, but it still sounds fresh. Some years
ago a re-mix of this song came out, I think it was re-mixed by Lesli
Lewis. Out of curiosity I listened to it; I must say that the re-mix
left me feeling underwhelmed. As an aside, I have listened to re-
mixes of quite a few RD songs, just to see how these songs would
sound with different orchestration: I have yet to hear a song where
I've felt the re-mix was as interesting as the original. (It probably
tells as much about my age as RD's genius).

'Dil Cheena' is another superlative songs, one of Asha's best. She
has sung it with a lot of verve. I wonder whose idea it was to add
deliberate sharp intakes at breath at strategic intervals. It
increases the pleasure of listening to this song. This song changes
its pace so often and so unpredictably, it leaves the listener in a
constant state of anticipation.

'Woh Hai Ek Baharoopiya' is the third great song from this film. RD,
IMO, is unparalled when it comes to creating a certain mood, here of
unease and suspense. I am not good at (and, therefore, don't really
care much about) instruments which are played in the background of
songs; in this song, among other things, the percussion in some of
the interludes is mind-blowing.

'One two three Go' is a terrific song, although it suffers from
pedestrian lyrics, IMO. I think the original was a Bengali song.

Finally, there is 'Tu Kaahe Roti Hai', which is a soleful song. The
tune is very melodious, and superbly sung by Kishore. This song had
also become fairly popular when the film came out.

Dhongi is an absolutely fantastic album. I know I am throwing
superlatives like confetti, but in my defence I am talking about one
of my all-time favourite albums, dominated by my favourite singers:
Kishore and Asha.

Finally, Dhongi was produced or directed (or both) by one Kantkumar.
RD gave music to another film of his, I think: 'Professor Ki
Padosan', which was a long delayed film which was released I think
after RD's death. The music of that film was not as good.

Ajay
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I
heard it first time....
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for Kishore's
albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got stunned
with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details..... .& then to my and your surprise, till that time I was
assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a mess
these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started to
search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I got
it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take dose
of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is a
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell me
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point of
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music which
all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion instrument,
would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that portion and comes
on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly found in a song which
is based on western beats.It is common in our classical music I
think! Also,the brass section used in this song is equally brilliant
to the RDs great brass songs which we have been already discussed in
some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed by
Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is it 'ahead
of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
------------ --------- --------- ---
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Soumya Roy
2008-04-05 06:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shashi,

You're absolutely right in highlighting 1971-79 as Pancham's most creative period. I would probably stretch it a bit more - say, 1969-1984 and that's 15 years. You'll see that most artistes - singers, instrumentalists, music directors - have a peak creative span of <= 15 years. And that includes the most prolific music composers like SD, Madan Mohan, Shankar Jaikishen and LP. I would go as far as saying that even Manna da, Kishore and the great Rafi saab had peak spans of around 18 years. Only the Mangeshkar sis duo crossed 20 years without loss of form and that's pretty unique in world music. In international pop, I can't think of anybody besides Cliff Richard and Elton John to have done this. The only exceptions to these time-bound form spans are the doyens of classical music where rigo
rous riyaaz allows the defiance of time and age to much larger extents.

And while on Asha-Pancham Bangla Puja gems, have you sampled "Ei, edike esho", "Elo melo kothha keno boli jaanina" (I don't know if these two had later Hindi conversions), "Jete daao aamay dekona" (the Hindi is I think "Jaane do mujhe" from Dil Padosi Hai) and "Jaabo ki jaabo na" (Hindi "Ab jo mile hai to" from Caravan). These songs had twin achievements - on the one hand they cemented the Asha-Pancham collaboration forever and on the other, they completely revolutionized the form, color and complexion of Bangla Adhunik Gaan (Bengali Modern Songs) for all times to come. They were path breakers in their own right. "Chokhe chokhe kothha bolo" (later, "Nahin nahin abhi nahin") and "Mohuaay jomechhe aaj mou go" followed.

Chalo, keep going!

Soumya

----- Original Message ----
From: shashirao <shashi-McdS88+M0qysTnJN9+***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Saturday, 5 April, 2008 10:26:31 AM
Subject: [Pancham] Re: Haye re haye tera ghungata-some thoughts

Ok...I am listening to this Asha Puja LP - which seems to be from
the era of Dhongee, Kehte Hain Mujhe Raja and Nikamma.

After listening to following 4 Puja numbers that were later used in
Hindi:
1. Mohuaay Jomechhe Aaj Mou Go - which became - jiyaa meN toofaan
jagaake saiyaaNjee jaao naa re haay (KHMR)
2. Pora Banshi Shunle E Mon - which became - liyo naa baaboo tanik
peeyo naa (KHMR)
3. Chalo Chole Jai - which became - 1-2-3 Go (Dhongee)
4. Sandhya Belay Tumi Ami - which became - Tere Bina Ik Pal Jiya
Jaaye Na (Nikamma)

I have concluded this must be the best period for the Pancham - Asha
partnership. Most of the romantic numbers were rendered by a
confident and dulcet Asha - at her prime voice.

And of course there is Kishore Kumar - always in his prime -
ok..that's the image we like to keep.

I am almost tempted to call the period between 1971 thru 1979 as
the "Romantic Era" - for Pancham - with the most excellent
experimental albeit matured and nourished output.

I am also convinced that the Bengali puja albums were not only major
grooming grounds for Pancham's tunes - but they also contributed
significantly to the resulting Hindi output.

If the Puja setup was more intimate with few instruments, the tunes
were fresh and have a typical Pancham-Asha flavor to it. When we
move to the Hindi film version, one finds the tunes much
nourished/polished, longer but well-rehearsed interludes, not many
slips or extempores from the singers - a certain commercialism maybe
perhaps due to considerations for the picturisation.

Anyways...back to Dhongee:

Coming back to my favorite - 'Wahan Chalo 1-2-3 Go' and its 'Chalo
Chole' counterpart - I simply cannot decide which is better.

The Bangla version has Pancham for the male vocals. And he also
indulges with Asha in crooning in parallel. So when Asha's singing
the antara line, Pancham is humming/crooning in parallel. Great
effect.

In the Dhongee version, I find Asha seems to be more creative and
experimental with the song. Maybe because she already knows the song
better? But we do have the interesting diversions in the interludes
where they decide 'Chalo Mazaa Karte Hain', etc.

Coming to 'Dil Cheena' this is like 2 songs in one. It starts with a
folkish beats (almost Pahadi/Nepali such) but has this manic fast
tune in the antaras that is mind-boggling. I tried writing down the
antaras - but Asha's speed leaves my typing panting.

Another cute phrase I like in the song is how Asha is made to
say "Taine" rather than "Tune" throughout the song - giving it a
north Indian - almost Himachal Pradesh flavor. I had some neighbours
who were Punjabis from HP - and I remember they always
saying 'Taine' instead of 'Tune'.

Coming to the manic antara - the first 2 lines are sung twice in a
frenzy - on the 2nd turn we have the next line sung which bridges
back to the folkish tune. For instance the line 'Gussa Bhi Kaam Na
Aaya' - brings the tune back to the Dil Cheena part.

And yes...as you mention...the sss...sss... effect is quite
prominent. But also notice the use of claps in the first
interlude... most of the rhythm is in claps and guitars.

Coming back to my favorite - 1-2-3 go...some more quaint things
about this song:

It has a very James Bondish feel to it especially the dramatic
guitar start. Also is it just me or does Asha hesitate/mumble her
first line...Wahan Chalo...then something that sounds like "Jis
Jagah".

Also check out how the bass and trumpets follow the singers in the
antaras. For instance...< bass>Dhoondho Tanhaai..Kahin Baji
Shehnai..<pa- paa-pa-paah> Koi Hoga To Hogi Basi Rusvai<trumpet
signoff>

The antara is sung by each singer...but the bass, trumpet music
following them is different and distinct. For instance...the first
time the antara's sung - it ends with a trumpet.

I also like the nice jugalbandi between violins, trumpets and
guitars - after Asha does her 'Bachaao' routine.

I am not sure if it is the raciness, the following trumpets or the
bass that endears this song to me - but still my favorite.

Lots been written on 'Hai Re Hai Tera Ghunghtaa' - so here's my
extra few cents:

First - the interlude is very familar to Sholay 'Jab Tak Hai Jaan'
theme. The massive brass section used in this song is awesome.

And what is that dog whining (or door opening) sound in the first
interlude?

Also...one of those long lyrics from Majrooh - where the antara
lines are not repeated. Kudos to Pancham for composing this long
line as if it was a repeating antara lines.

As for lyrics...the line 'Madhosh Mein...Khamosh Tum...Kaise Koi
Baat Ho...Beech Mein Aaye Tera Ghunghtaa' sums up the mood well.

And by the 3rd antara I am also reminded of the 'Yeh Duniya Ghoom
Rahi Hai' from Yeh To Kamaal Ho Gaya.

Finally the 'Woh Hai Ek Behrupiyaa' is nothing but a festival of
dholaks, drums, Iktaras, dholki and that rajasthani string
instrument used in 'Kya Hua Tera Vaada'.

And a very surprising and bold outing by the madal - especially how
it always follows the first 2 lines of the mukhada.

Is it bagpipes before the 2nd antara? 'Suljah Di Aankhon Ne Dil Ki
Uljhan?

And Amit definitely sounds very raw, young and nasal in his first
outing with KK/Asha. Need to see the movie on how Premnath pulls off
with Amit's voice.

Ok...too much rambling...I must not type while and after listening
to the songs - too much insipid details. Its almost like a Dhongee
For Dummies guide for the song listener. I will stick to writing
stuff from memory.

Loin
Post by suwag11
This is one of RD's best songs. As you say, the intro with its
percussion and wind instruments and violins, is awesome. The way
the
Post by suwag11
rhythm gets established at the beginning is great. And then the
song
Post by suwag11
begins with an infinitesimal pause, trademark RD. Kishore and Asha
are at their best here. The way Kishore makes his entry is just
brilliant. Asha is a perfect singing partner. When I first heard
this
Post by suwag11
song, I thought the way she pronounced 'Ghunghata' a bit affected,
but, over the years, has grown to love it. This song has
intoxicating rhythm, cracking tune, excellent singing, and very
decent lyrics. I remember reading somewhere (it may well have been
this forum) that this is actually a folk-based tune. Folk tunes,
especially EAstern tunes, were forte of both the Burmans, more of
SDB, it is generally thought, than RD. I think RD was equally
adapt
Post by suwag11
at this as his father, but such was his versatality that a song
which
Post by suwag11
may well have had its roots in in folk-tunes was completely
transformed by the time he was through with it. BTW, this song was
a
Post by suwag11
big hit when the film was released, although the film flopped. As
Rishi Kapur once said, RD's music was always good, no matter how
the
Post by suwag11
film performed. This is an evergreen song; more than 30 years have
passed since it first came out, but it still sounds fresh. Some
years
Post by suwag11
ago a re-mix of this song came out, I think it was re-mixed by
Lesli
Post by suwag11
Lewis. Out of curiosity I listened to it; I must say that the re-
mix
Post by suwag11
left me feeling underwhelmed. As an aside, I have listened to re-
mixes of quite a few RD songs, just to see how these songs would
sound with different orchestration: I have yet to hear a song
where
Post by suwag11
I've felt the re-mix was as interesting as the original. (It
probably
Post by suwag11
tells as much about my age as RD's genius).
'Dil Cheena' is another superlative songs, one of Asha's best. She
has sung it with a lot of verve. I wonder whose idea it was to add
deliberate sharp intakes at breath at strategic intervals. It
increases the pleasure of listening to this song. This song
changes
Post by suwag11
its pace so often and so unpredictably, it leaves the listener in
a
Post by suwag11
constant state of anticipation.
'Woh Hai Ek Baharoopiya' is the third great song from this film.
RD,
Post by suwag11
IMO, is unparalled when it comes to creating a certain mood, here
of
Post by suwag11
unease and suspense. I am not good at (and, therefore, don't
really
Post by suwag11
care much about) instruments which are played in the background of
songs; in this song, among other things, the percussion in some of
the interludes is mind-blowing.
'One two three Go' is a terrific song, although it suffers from
pedestrian lyrics, IMO. I think the original was a Bengali song.
Finally, there is 'Tu Kaahe Roti Hai', which is a soleful song.
The
Post by suwag11
tune is very melodious, and superbly sung by Kishore. This song
had
Post by suwag11
also become fairly popular when the film came out.
Dhongi is an absolutely fantastic album. I know I am throwing
superlatives like confetti, but in my defence I am talking about
one
Post by suwag11
of my all-time favourite albums, dominated by my favourite
Kishore and Asha.
Finally, Dhongi was produced or directed (or both) by one
Kantkumar.
Post by suwag11
RD gave music to another film of his, I think: 'Professor Ki
Padosan', which was a long delayed film which was released I think
after RD's death. The music of that film was not as good.
Ajay
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I
heard it first time....
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for
Kishore's
Post by suwag11
albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got stunned
with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details..... .& then to my and your surprise, till that time I
was
Post by suwag11
assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a
mess
Post by suwag11
these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started to
search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I
got
Post by suwag11
it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take
dose
Post by suwag11
of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is
a
Post by suwag11
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell
me
Post by suwag11
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point
of
Post by suwag11
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music
which
Post by suwag11
all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion instrument,
would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that portion and
comes
Post by suwag11
on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly found in a song
which
Post by suwag11
is based on western beats.It is common in our classical music I
think! Also,the brass section used in this song is equally
brilliant
Post by suwag11
to the RDs great brass songs which we have been already discussed
in
Post by suwag11
some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed
by
Post by suwag11
Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is
it 'ahead
Post by suwag11
of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
------------ --------- --------- ---
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile.
Post by suwag11
Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
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Ramachandran Ram
2008-04-05 19:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Great Rd stuff folks.

Shashi, until I read you I thought I knew it all about RD. You opened up more Avenues of search for old LPs now of RD which I do not have.

Keep it going!
Regards,
Ram

Soumya Roy <skroy131-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote: Hi Shashi,

You're absolutely right in highlighting 1971-79 as Pancham's most creative period. I would probably stretch it a bit more - say, 1969-1984 and that's 15 years. You'll see that most artistes - singers, instrumentalists, music directors - have a peak creative span of <= 15 years. And that includes the most prolific music composers like SD, Madan Mohan, Shankar Jaikishen and LP. I would go as far as saying that even Manna da, Kishore and the great Rafi saab had peak spans of around 18 years. Only the Mangeshkar sis duo crossed 20 years without loss of form and that's pretty unique in world music. In international pop, I can't think of anybody besides Cliff Richard and Elton John to have done this. The only exceptions to these time-bound form spans are the doyens of classical music where rig
orous riyaaz allows the defiance of time and age to much larger extents.

And while on Asha-Pancham Bangla Puja gems, have you sampled "Ei, edike esho", "Elo melo kothha keno boli jaanina" (I don't know if these two had later Hindi conversions), "Jete daao aamay dekona" (the Hindi is I think "Jaane do mujhe" from Dil Padosi Hai) and "Jaabo ki jaabo na" (Hindi "Ab jo mile hai to" from Caravan). These songs had twin achievements - on the one hand they cemented the Asha-Pancham collaboration forever and on the other, they completely revolutionized the form, color and complexion of Bangla Adhunik Gaan (Bengali Modern Songs) for all times to come. They were path breakers in their own right. "Chokhe chokhe kothha bolo" (later, "Nahin nahin abhi nahin") and "Mohuaay jomechhe aaj mou go" followed.

Chalo, keep going!

Soumya

----- Original Message ----
From: shashirao <shashi-McdS88+M0qysTnJN9+***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Saturday, 5 April, 2008 10:26:31 AM
Subject: [Pancham] Re: Haye re haye tera ghungata-some thoughts

Ok...I am listening to this Asha Puja LP - which seems to be from
the era of Dhongee, Kehte Hain Mujhe Raja and Nikamma.

After listening to following 4 Puja numbers that were later used in
Hindi:
1. Mohuaay Jomechhe Aaj Mou Go - which became - jiyaa meN toofaan
jagaake saiyaaNjee jaao naa re haay (KHMR)
2. Pora Banshi Shunle E Mon - which became - liyo naa baaboo tanik
peeyo naa (KHMR)
3. Chalo Chole Jai - which became - 1-2-3 Go (Dhongee)
4. Sandhya Belay Tumi Ami - which became - Tere Bina Ik Pal Jiya
Jaaye Na (Nikamma)

I have concluded this must be the best period for the Pancham - Asha
partnership. Most of the romantic numbers were rendered by a
confident and dulcet Asha - at her prime voice.

And of course there is Kishore Kumar - always in his prime -
ok..that's the image we like to keep.

I am almost tempted to call the period between 1971 thru 1979 as
the "Romantic Era" - for Pancham - with the most excellent
experimental albeit matured and nourished output.

I am also convinced that the Bengali puja albums were not only major
grooming grounds for Pancham's tunes - but they also contributed
significantly to the resulting Hindi output.

If the Puja setup was more intimate with few instruments, the tunes
were fresh and have a typical Pancham-Asha flavor to it. When we
move to the Hindi film version, one finds the tunes much
nourished/polished, longer but well-rehearsed interludes, not many
slips or extempores from the singers - a certain commercialism maybe
perhaps due to considerations for the picturisation.

Anyways...back to Dhongee:

Coming back to my favorite - 'Wahan Chalo 1-2-3 Go' and its 'Chalo
Chole' counterpart - I simply cannot decide which is better.

The Bangla version has Pancham for the male vocals. And he also
indulges with Asha in crooning in parallel. So when Asha's singing
the antara line, Pancham is humming/crooning in parallel. Great
effect.

In the Dhongee version, I find Asha seems to be more creative and
experimental with the song. Maybe because she already knows the song
better? But we do have the interesting diversions in the interludes
where they decide 'Chalo Mazaa Karte Hain', etc.

Coming to 'Dil Cheena' this is like 2 songs in one. It starts with a
folkish beats (almost Pahadi/Nepali such) but has this manic fast
tune in the antaras that is mind-boggling. I tried writing down the
antaras - but Asha's speed leaves my typing panting.

Another cute phrase I like in the song is how Asha is made to
say "Taine" rather than "Tune" throughout the song - giving it a
north Indian - almost Himachal Pradesh flavor. I had some neighbours
who were Punjabis from HP - and I remember they always
saying 'Taine' instead of 'Tune'.

Coming to the manic antara - the first 2 lines are sung twice in a
frenzy - on the 2nd turn we have the next line sung which bridges
back to the folkish tune. For instance the line 'Gussa Bhi Kaam Na
Aaya' - brings the tune back to the Dil Cheena part.

And yes...as you mention...the sss...sss... effect is quite
prominent. But also notice the use of claps in the first
interlude... most of the rhythm is in claps and guitars.

Coming back to my favorite - 1-2-3 go...some more quaint things
about this song:

It has a very James Bondish feel to it especially the dramatic
guitar start. Also is it just me or does Asha hesitate/mumble her
first line...Wahan Chalo...then something that sounds like "Jis
Jagah".

Also check out how the bass and trumpets follow the singers in the
antaras. For instance...< bass>Dhoondho Tanhaai..Kahin Baji
Shehnai..<pa- paa-pa-paah> Koi Hoga To Hogi Basi Rusvai<trumpet
signoff>

The antara is sung by each singer...but the bass, trumpet music
following them is different and distinct. For instance...the first
time the antara's sung - it ends with a trumpet.

I also like the nice jugalbandi between violins, trumpets and
guitars - after Asha does her 'Bachaao' routine.

I am not sure if it is the raciness, the following trumpets or the
bass that endears this song to me - but still my favorite.

Lots been written on 'Hai Re Hai Tera Ghunghtaa' - so here's my
extra few cents:

First - the interlude is very familar to Sholay 'Jab Tak Hai Jaan'
theme. The massive brass section used in this song is awesome.

And what is that dog whining (or door opening) sound in the first
interlude?

Also...one of those long lyrics from Majrooh - where the antara
lines are not repeated. Kudos to Pancham for composing this long
line as if it was a repeating antara lines.

As for lyrics...the line 'Madhosh Mein...Khamosh Tum...Kaise Koi
Baat Ho...Beech Mein Aaye Tera Ghunghtaa' sums up the mood well.

And by the 3rd antara I am also reminded of the 'Yeh Duniya Ghoom
Rahi Hai' from Yeh To Kamaal Ho Gaya.

Finally the 'Woh Hai Ek Behrupiyaa' is nothing but a festival of
dholaks, drums, Iktaras, dholki and that rajasthani string
instrument used in 'Kya Hua Tera Vaada'.

And a very surprising and bold outing by the madal - especially how
it always follows the first 2 lines of the mukhada.

Is it bagpipes before the 2nd antara? 'Suljah Di Aankhon Ne Dil Ki
Uljhan?

And Amit definitely sounds very raw, young and nasal in his first
outing with KK/Asha. Need to see the movie on how Premnath pulls off
with Amit's voice.

Ok...too much rambling...I must not type while and after listening
to the songs - too much insipid details. Its almost like a Dhongee
For Dummies guide for the song listener. I will stick to writing
stuff from memory.

Loin
Post by suwag11
This is one of RD's best songs. As you say, the intro with its
percussion and wind instruments and violins, is awesome. The way
the
Post by suwag11
rhythm gets established at the beginning is great. And then the
song
Post by suwag11
begins with an infinitesimal pause, trademark RD. Kishore and Asha
are at their best here. The way Kishore makes his entry is just
brilliant. Asha is a perfect singing partner. When I first heard
this
Post by suwag11
song, I thought the way she pronounced 'Ghunghata' a bit affected,
but, over the years, has grown to love it. This song has
intoxicating rhythm, cracking tune, excellent singing, and very
decent lyrics. I remember reading somewhere (it may well have been
this forum) that this is actually a folk-based tune. Folk tunes,
especially EAstern tunes, were forte of both the Burmans, more of
SDB, it is generally thought, than RD. I think RD was equally
adapt
Post by suwag11
at this as his father, but such was his versatality that a song
which
Post by suwag11
may well have had its roots in in folk-tunes was completely
transformed by the time he was through with it. BTW, this song was
a
Post by suwag11
big hit when the film was released, although the film flopped. As
Rishi Kapur once said, RD's music was always good, no matter how
the
Post by suwag11
film performed. This is an evergreen song; more than 30 years have
passed since it first came out, but it still sounds fresh. Some
years
Post by suwag11
ago a re-mix of this song came out, I think it was re-mixed by
Lesli
Post by suwag11
Lewis. Out of curiosity I listened to it; I must say that the re-
mix
Post by suwag11
left me feeling underwhelmed. As an aside, I have listened to re-
mixes of quite a few RD songs, just to see how these songs would
sound with different orchestration: I have yet to hear a song
where
Post by suwag11
I've felt the re-mix was as interesting as the original. (It
probably
Post by suwag11
tells as much about my age as RD's genius).
'Dil Cheena' is another superlative songs, one of Asha's best. She
has sung it with a lot of verve. I wonder whose idea it was to add
deliberate sharp intakes at breath at strategic intervals. It
increases the pleasure of listening to this song. This song
changes
Post by suwag11
its pace so often and so unpredictably, it leaves the listener in
a
Post by suwag11
constant state of anticipation.
'Woh Hai Ek Baharoopiya' is the third great song from this film.
RD,
Post by suwag11
IMO, is unparalled when it comes to creating a certain mood, here
of
Post by suwag11
unease and suspense. I am not good at (and, therefore, don't
really
Post by suwag11
care much about) instruments which are played in the background of
songs; in this song, among other things, the percussion in some of
the interludes is mind-blowing.
'One two three Go' is a terrific song, although it suffers from
pedestrian lyrics, IMO. I think the original was a Bengali song.
Finally, there is 'Tu Kaahe Roti Hai', which is a soleful song.
The
Post by suwag11
tune is very melodious, and superbly sung by Kishore. This song
had
Post by suwag11
also become fairly popular when the film came out.
Dhongi is an absolutely fantastic album. I know I am throwing
superlatives like confetti, but in my defence I am talking about
one
Post by suwag11
of my all-time favourite albums, dominated by my favourite
Kishore and Asha.
Finally, Dhongi was produced or directed (or both) by one
Kantkumar.
Post by suwag11
RD gave music to another film of his, I think: 'Professor Ki
Padosan', which was a long delayed film which was released I think
after RD's death. The music of that film was not as good.
Ajay
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I
heard it first time....
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for
Kishore's
Post by suwag11
albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got stunned
with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details..... .& then to my and your surprise, till that time I
was
Post by suwag11
assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a
mess
Post by suwag11
these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started to
search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I
got
Post by suwag11
it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take
dose
Post by suwag11
of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is
a
Post by suwag11
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell
me
Post by suwag11
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point
of
Post by suwag11
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music
which
Post by suwag11
all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion instrument,
would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that portion and
comes
Post by suwag11
on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly found in a song
which
Post by suwag11
is based on western beats.It is common in our classical music I
think! Also,the brass section used in this song is equally
brilliant
Post by suwag11
to the RDs great brass songs which we have been already discussed
in
Post by suwag11
some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed
by
Post by suwag11
Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is
it 'ahead
Post by suwag11
of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
------------ --------- --------- ---
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile.
Post by suwag11
Try it now.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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sudipta chanda
2008-04-06 12:46:45 UTC
Permalink
 
hi,
How far I know about the making of the song "haye re haye" that
once smt Mili bhattacharya(rd.'s class friend badal babu's wife)
sang the bangla folk song in one of their family get to gether where
pancham da was present in kolkata.he liked the tune and made the hindi one.the original song is"MENOKA MATHAYE DILO GHOMTA".
sudipta,kolkata
Post by sagar kopardekar
Hi Ajay,
It seems this weekend will be packed for me. Now that you have made wonderful analysis of all these songs I have to listen this album again after a big gap... I would say. Loin already pointed out some songs including fabulous Azarbaijan whose beats are occupied my mind whole week.
Now since there is refernce of Gypsy style singing I am also thinking of listening to Carvan songs and Kaho Kaise Rasta Bhul Gaye. Ok, now if I listen to this Bade Dilwala song then how can I miss out Jeevan ke Din (Lata) from same film? I always cherish her 'muraki' taken on the word 'Bhi'....can be listened in both Antaras... Yeh Zindagi Dard bhi hai-Yeh zindagi hai Dawa 'Bhi'ssssss. The way her voice touches different notes in continuatiuon so easily. Hats off! I always refer such places like Lata has left back her 'signature'.
Now that if listen to this 'signature' then I have to listen the similar treatment given in Shalimar song - Aaina Wohi Rahta ha. At the end somewhere in some sign line she has left back same 'signature'. I need to refresh that again. Since we are taking about such 'signatures' then in continuation with that I need to listen Asha's same tratement in Ajaare Meri Zamborin...mujhe dar hai 'kya'ssssss.... somewhere after 2nd antara.
Also I have some rarely(for me) heard albums lined up. As I said I am sure this weekend will be fully packed for me.
Cheers Pancham!
Sagar
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 12:00:02 PM
Subject: [Pancham] Re: Haye re haye tera ghungata-some thoughts
This is one of RD's best songs. As you say, the intro with its
percussion and wind instruments and violins, is awesome. The way the
rhythm gets established at the beginning is great. And then the song
begins with an infinitesimal pause, trademark RD. Kishore and Asha
are at their best here. The way Kishore makes his entry is just
brilliant. Asha is a perfect singing partner. When I first heard this
song, I thought the way she pronounced 'Ghunghata' a bit affected,
intoxicating rhythm, cracking tune, excellent singing, and very
decent lyrics. I remember reading somewhere (it may well have been
this forum) that this is actually a folk-based tune. Folk tunes,
especially EAstern tunes, were forte of both the Burmans, more of
SDB, it is generally thought, than RD. I think RD was equally adapt
at this as his father, but such was his versatality that a song which
may well have had its roots in in folk-tunes was completely
transformed by the time he was through with it. BTW, this song was a
big hit when the film was released, although the film flopped. As
Rishi Kapur once said, RD's music was always good, no matter how the
film performed. This is an evergreen song; more than 30 years have
passed since it first came out, but it still sounds fresh. Some years
ago a re-mix of this song came out, I think it was re-mixed by Lesli
Lewis. Out of curiosity I listened to it; I must say that the re-mix
left me feeling underwhelmed. As an aside, I have listened to re-
mixes of quite a few RD songs, just to see how these songs would
sound with different orchestration: I have yet to hear a song where
I've felt the re-mix was as interesting as the original. (It probably
tells as much about my age as RD's genius).
'Dil Cheena' is another superlative songs, one of Asha's best. She
has sung it with a lot of verve. I wonder whose idea it was to add
deliberate sharp intakes at breath at strategic intervals. It
increases the pleasure of listening to this song. This song changes
its pace so often and so unpredictably, it leaves the listener in a
constant state of anticipation.
'Woh Hai Ek Baharoopiya' is the third great song from this film. RD,
IMO, is unparalled when it comes to creating a certain mood, here of
unease and suspense. I am not good at (and, therefore, don't really
care much about) instruments which are played in the background of
songs; in this song, among other things, the percussion in some of
the interludes is mind-blowing.
'One two three Go' is a terrific song, although it suffers from
pedestrian lyrics, IMO. I think the original was a Bengali song.
Finally, there is 'Tu Kaahe Roti Hai', which is a soleful song. The
tune is very melodious, and superbly sung by Kishore. This song had
also become fairly popular when the film came out.
Dhongi is an absolutely fantastic album. I know I am throwing
superlatives like confetti, but in my defence I am talking about one
Kishore and Asha.
Finally, Dhongi was produced or directed (or both) by one Kantkumar.
RD gave music to another film of his, I think: 'Professor Ki
Padosan', which was a long delayed film which was released I think
after RD's death. The music of that film was not as good.
Ajay
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Song-Haye re haye tera ghungata
First I want to share some of my thoughts about this song when I
heard it first time....
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
It was that time when I was in my beginning days of hearing RD
music & when I was die hard fan of Kishoreda only (still I am,but
that time was different :D )....one day I was searching for Kishore's
albums in music store & some other albums, suddenly I got stunned
with a awesome intoduction rhythmic music of a song.......it
was 'Haye re Haye'.....I asked the shopboy about it and he told me
the details..... .& then to my and your surprise, till that time I was
assuming the remix number of this song as original :(.....What a mess
these bastards have made of this great song.......& I started to
search original song as soft copy & atlast after so many years I got
it in last year. And from that date almost for every day i take dose
of this song twice a day!!!
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Now about this song-
First of all what I have been observed is-- inspite that this is a
great song in all manners it is hardly been discussesd in subjects
like duets,rthymic songs,Brass section etc etc. Could anyone tell me
why is it so?
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
In my opinion it has all the stuff to be a great song in all
manners. The introduction rhythem is so great, and the main point of
surprise is when the raso-raso starts. Untill that point one would
feel it as a monotonous rhythm but when raso starts it becomes
dynamic. It has a one perticular portion in that starting music which
all rhythm/taal lovers,who are learning any percussion instrument,
would love, is when the rhythem goes offbit in that portion and comes
on SAM (first beat of Taal). It can be hardly found in a song which
is based on western beats.It is common in our classical music I
think! Also,the brass section used in this song is equally brilliant
to the RDs great brass songs which we have been already discussed in
some topics.
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
So my question is why this song remain unheard or less discussed by
Pancham lovers. I am unable to find reason for this. Or is it 'ahead
of times' song still??
Post by Yogesh Patwardhan
Could anyone throw some light??
Yogesh Patwardhan.
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Yogesh Patwardhan
2008-05-07 09:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Vijay anand(goldie) on pancham:
Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon had composers copying his tunes.If only he had been a little more dedicated he’d have left the competition far behind. He gave his best for Dev sahab and me. There were times when I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted an orginal composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in front of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense. And that resulted in his downfall. However, if he’d lived longer I’m sure he would have made a strong comeback and proved that he wasn’t only a genius with western orchestration but was also a master of melody like his father. 1942...A Love Story, his last composition, proved that.
chk this for full article- http://www.screenindia.com/old/20020412/fnost.html
Now to all memebers,
I consider his actual downfall was never but in the 80's.....
But are you agree with Goldie? To some extent I agree. But what could be some other reasons?
1. He was too much westernized? We know his knowledge of Indian classical but it could be the reason?
2. Not selective on movies or banners?
3. Not dedicated? This is as per Goldie but I didnt get this.....what he wanted to say?
Was he casual about his work? Anyone can throw some light on this?
4. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense...This is again as per goldie and make some sense.
What could be others in your opinion?


Yogesh Patwardhan.


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PRANAY KHATRI
2008-05-07 10:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I suppose his PR was not very good, he only wanted to give good music, "FOR WHOM" was not a point of concern for him.

Same is the reason for the downfall of Jatin Lalit also I suppose (They don't even have a single film fare award in their kitty, although they were the best after loRD).



Thanks, Pranay


--- On Wed, 7/5/08, Yogesh Patwardhan <yvp76-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Yogesh Patwardhan <yvp76-/***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 3:03 PM






Vijay anand(goldie) on pancham:
Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon had composers copying his tunes.If only he had been a little more dedicated he’d have left the competition far behind. He gave his best for Dev sahab and me. There were times when I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted an orginal composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in front of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense. And that resulted in his downfall. However, if he’d lived longer I’m sure he would have made a strong comeback and proved that he wasn’t only a genius with western orchestration but was also a master of melody like his father. 1942...A Love Story, his last composition, proved that.
chk this for full article- http://www.screenin dia.com/old/ 20020412/ fnost.html
Now to all memebers,
I consider his actual downfall was never but in the 80's.....
But are you agree with Goldie? To some extent I agree. But what could be some other reasons?
1. He was too much westernized? We know his knowledge of Indian classical but it could be the reason?
2. Not selective on movies or banners?
3. Not dedicated? This is as per Goldie but I didnt get this.....what he wanted to say?
Was he casual about his work? Anyone can throw some light on this?
4. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense...This is again as per goldie and make some sense.
What could be others in your opinion?

Yogesh Patwardhan.

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K
2008-05-08 01:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Pancham's problem was that he'd pass off B-grade tunes to directors
who didn't have such a keen musical sense.
Is this a typo? Should it be A-grade tunes instead? Otherwise I don't
see the problem. I think it makes perfect sense to pass of B-grade
tunes to directors who don't have any sense of music. Why would I waste
my good tunes on an ignoramous?

Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay Anand judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki Aawaaz are B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the actor/director is Vijay Anand. :))


Ketan


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suwag11
2008-05-08 05:43:50 UTC
Permalink
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is absolutely first rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in the 80s.

Ajay


Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay Anand judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki Aawaaz are B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the actor/director is Vijay Anand. :))

Ketan




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Anirudha Bhattacharjee
2008-05-08 06:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but it is
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it is
certainly not among RD's best, though the mukhda is
indeed different, starting with semblance of an
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the lines of
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC

IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is absolutely first
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in the 80s.
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay Anand
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki Aawaaz are
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the actor/director is
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
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suwag11
2008-05-08 08:37:04 UTC
Permalink
I like all the songs of this film except the Suresh Wadkar solo. In
addition to Kishore solo, which is one of my favourites, there are
two Asha B solos in this film ('Rote Rote Naina', which I find very
soulful, and 'Jo Bhi Tu Ne Dekha', which is a very good Mujra song (I
think:); it sounds like a Mujra song. Even if it isn't the tune is
very hummable.) Asha B has mentioned somewhere that 'Rote Rote Naina'
is one of her favourite songs. Then there is the KK-Asha duet
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like this song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s, this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this duet has a Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has used the tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't remember it just now.
I don't rate the Suresh Wadkar solo very highly.

So, for me, this album is first rate (4 out of 5 songs I like a lot),
although, it won't feature in my top 10 RD albums; but that is
because RD has spoiled me.

Ajay
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but it is
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it is
certainly not among RD's best, though the mukhda is
indeed different, starting with semblance of an
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the lines of
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC
IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is absolutely first
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in the 80s.
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay Anand
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki Aawaaz are
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the actor/director is
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
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Anindya Roychowdhury
2008-05-08 09:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Then there is the KK-Asha duet
Post by suwag11
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like this song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s, this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this duet has a Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has used the tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't remember it just now.
the antara is, in a way, his dad's...the antara of "Doorey kon
porobaashe" (whose mukhra later became "Woh kaun hai tera"...which got
sorta translated into the mukhra of "Chup hai.n dharti chup hai.n
chanda sitaarey" (House # 44)

confusing, ain't it?

Anindya


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Anindya Roychowdhury
2008-05-08 09:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by suwag11
Then there is the KK-Asha duet
Post by suwag11
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like this song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s, this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this duet has a Bengali
counterpart.
"Aaadho aalo chhaya te" (Kolonkini Konkaboti - a pathetic film that
even Uttam Kumar and RDB couldn't resurrect!)

Anindya


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sourav mazumder
2008-05-09 02:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Not that bad a movie either. Saw it couple of months back in vcd. Apart form teh songs the performance of the stallwarts were also good, the story (Niharanjan Gupta) is also fine.

I think the main problem was in overall production bits like editing, sound etc. That happened because of Uttam Kumar's death before the movie got released.
Post by Govind Maindargikar
Subject: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 5:09 AM
Post by suwag11
Then there is the KK-Asha duet
Post by suwag11
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like
this song. When I
Post by suwag11
Post by suwag11
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more
interesting than
the
Post by suwag11
Post by suwag11
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the
80s, this song grew
Post by suwag11
Post by suwag11
upon me over the years. I have heard that this
duet has a Bengali
Post by suwag11
Post by suwag11
counterpart.
"Aaadho aalo chhaya te" (Kolonkini Konkaboti - a
pathetic film that
even Uttam Kumar and RDB couldn't resurrect!)
Anindya
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sourav mazumder
2008-05-09 02:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Do you say that antara of Dur Koan Parabase is same as antara of Ankhiyon Ka Kajra ?

In that case I beg to differ, except the similarity in the line 'moan moar moayuri hoaye aaj paakhna mele (forgot the hindi lyrics of ankhiyo ka kajra)' the entire melody is veru different in the antara of these 2 songs.

Sourav
Post by Govind Maindargikar
Subject: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 5:07 AM
Then there is the KK-Asha duet
Post by suwag11
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like this
song. When I
Post by suwag11
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more
interesting than the
Post by suwag11
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s,
this song grew
Post by suwag11
upon me over the years. I have heard that this duet
has a Bengali
Post by suwag11
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has used
the tune of the
Post by suwag11
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't
remember it just
now.
the antara is, in a way, his dad's...the antara of
"Doorey kon
porobaashe" (whose mukhra later became "Woh kaun
hai tera"...which got
sorta translated into the mukhra of "Chup hai.n dharti
chup hai.n
chanda sitaarey" (House # 44)
confusing, ain't it?
Anindya
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Shankh Banerjee
2008-05-08 09:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Anida,

I know at sm'other place you had mentioned GKA to be one of your most likeable albums.Then what makes you averse to say the song was only good 'cos it has the Kishore Kumar effect.Also one of the song is a recycled product, so if 'KK' (bengali) sounds good, then whats wrong with the hindi counterpart?

SW has sung pretty well in 'Pagla Pagla' and it has great use of bass(guitar) in the song.
All in all if GKA was a good album then how did it become average suddenly?

Your take?

-Shankh
suwag11 <acwagle-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
I like all the songs of this film except the Suresh Wadkar solo. In
addition to Kishore solo, which is one of my favourites, there are
two Asha B solos in this film ('Rote Rote Naina', which I find very
soulful, and 'Jo Bhi Tu Ne Dekha', which is a very good Mujra song (I
think:); it sounds like a Mujra song. Even if it isn't the tune is
very hummable.) Asha B has mentioned somewhere that 'Rote Rote Naina'
is one of her favourite songs. Then there is the KK-Asha duet
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like this song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s, this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this duet has a Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has used the tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't remember it just now.
I don't rate the Suresh Wadkar solo very highly.

So, for me, this album is first rate (4 out of 5 songs I like a lot),
although, it won't feature in my top 10 RD albums; but that is
because RD has spoiled me.

Ajay
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but it is
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it is
certainly not among RD's best, though the mukhda is
indeed different, starting with semblance of an
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the lines of
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC
IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is absolutely first
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in the 80s.
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay Anand
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki Aawaaz are
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the actor/director is
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
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Anirudha Bhattacharjee
2008-05-08 12:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, I forgot Ankhiyon ka Kajra .. but the Bangla
version is definitely ahead
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Anida,
I know at sm'other place you had mentioned GKA to
be one of your most likeable albums.Then what makes
you averse to say the song was only good 'cos it has
the Kishore Kumar effect.Also one of the song is a
recycled product, so if 'KK' (bengali) sounds good,
then whats wrong with the hindi counterpart?
SW has sung pretty well in 'Pagla Pagla' and it
has great use of bass(guitar) in the song.
All in all if GKA was a good album then how did it
become average suddenly?
Your take?
-Shankh
I like all the songs of this film except
the Suresh Wadkar solo. In
addition to Kishore solo, which is one of my
favourites, there are
two Asha B solos in this film ('Rote Rote Naina',
which I find very
soulful, and 'Jo Bhi Tu Ne Dekha', which is a very
good Mujra song (I
think:); it sounds like a Mujra song. Even if it
isn't the tune is
very hummable.) Asha B has mentioned somewhere that
'Rote Rote Naina'
is one of her favourite songs. Then there is the
KK-Asha duet
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like this
song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more
interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s,
this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this duet
has a Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has used
the tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't
remember it just now.
I don't rate the Suresh Wadkar solo very highly.
So, for me, this album is first rate (4 out of 5
songs I like a lot),
although, it won't feature in my top 10 RD albums;
but that is
because RD has spoiled me.
Ajay
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but it is
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it is
certainly not among RD's best, though the mukhda
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
indeed different, starting with semblance of an
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the lines
of
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC
IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is absolutely
first
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in the
80s.
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay
Anand
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki Aawaaz
are
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the actor/director
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
__________________________________________________________
Post by Shankh Banerjee
______________
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
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Post by Shankh Banerjee
Warm Regds...
Shankh Banerjee
Sr QA Engineer(Software)
InfoValue Computing Inc
Website: www.infovalue.com
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sourav mazumder
2008-05-09 02:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Rote Rote Raina is in my view of the similar genre of Mohuay Joameche Aaj (Lelo na babu taneek piyona - Kahete Hain Mujhko Raja).
Post by Govind Maindargikar
Subject: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 4:37 AM
I like all the songs of this film except the Suresh Wadkar
solo. In
addition to Kishore solo, which is one of my favourites,
there are
two Asha B solos in this film ('Rote Rote Naina',
which I find very
soulful, and 'Jo Bhi Tu Ne Dekha', which is a very
good Mujra song (I
think:); it sounds like a Mujra song. Even if it isn't
the tune is
very hummable.) Asha B has mentioned somewhere that
'Rote Rote Naina'
is one of her favourite songs. Then there is the KK-Asha
duet
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like this song.
When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more interesting
than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s, this
song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this duet has a
Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has used the
tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't
remember it just now.
I don't rate the Suresh Wadkar solo very highly.
So, for me, this album is first rate (4 out of 5 songs I
like a lot),
although, it won't feature in my top 10 RD albums; but
that is
because RD has spoiled me.
Ajay
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but it is
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it is
certainly not among RD's best, though the mukhda
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
indeed different, starting with semblance of an
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the lines of
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC
IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is absolutely
first
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in the
80s.
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay
Anand
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki Aawaaz
are
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the
actor/director is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
______________________________________________________________________
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suwag11
2008-05-09 04:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Saurav,

Have changed the title of the thread as the topic under discussion is
different.

I have not heard the Bengali number, but the Hindi incarnation from
KHMR seems very upbeat in its mood and tempo. Rote Rote Naina is full
of pathos. I don't think these two songs belong to the same genre.

On a different tack you detect shades of 'LIyo Na' (KHMR) in JAipur
Se Nikli Gaadi (Guru Dev) which came out decades later.

Ajay

Rote Rote Raina is in my view of the similar genre of Mohuay Joameche
Aaj (Lelo na babu taneek piyona - Kahete Hain Mujhko Raja).
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sourav mazumder
2008-05-09 20:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Ajay,

Not sure how do I explain you the similarity as I'm very poor in technicalities.

However, there is a very close similarity of the tunes 'palkite choaleche kaar bou goa' (Mohuay Joameche Aaj) and 'Chanda Mushkuraye' (Rote rote raina).

Incidentally, yesterday I was playing Rote Rote Raina for some of my friends and one of my friends (she herself into singing classical music) couls also pick up the song and relate it to Mohuaay Joamechhe Aaj.

May be the mood wise Mohuaay Joamecheh Aaj has more similarity to Rote Rote Raina than Liyo Na.

And you are absolutely right, 'Pahele hoata hain kuch kuch .... Main toa rajdunga dil nikalke' of Jaipur Se Nikli Gadi has same tune.

Sourav
Subject: [Pancham] Re: Rote Rote Naina (Ghunghroo Ki Awaaz),.
Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 12:55 AM
Hi Saurav,
Have changed the title of the thread as the topic under
discussion is
different.
I have not heard the Bengali number, but the Hindi
incarnation from
KHMR seems very upbeat in its mood and tempo. Rote Rote
Naina is full
of pathos. I don't think these two songs belong to the
same genre.
On a different tack you detect shades of 'LIyo Na'
(KHMR) in JAipur
Se Nikli Gaadi (Guru Dev) which came out decades later.
Ajay
Rote Rote Raina is in my view of the similar genre of
Mohuay Joameche
Aaj (Lelo na babu taneek piyona - Kahete Hain Mujhko Raja).
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Dikshit Arya
2008-05-09 17:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Every once in a while we get to the question of Pm's decline and the
usual litany of deteriorating taste, Pm's lack of commercial acumen
his flops etc are cited as the reasons.


The movies failing at the box office and the deterioration of taste
are certainly valid reasons.

However, `Lack' of understanding of the commercial demands or
refusal to `pander' to the low taste was not the reason. Pm was
groomed by SDB who was the most commercially conscious composers. If
at all he surpassed SDB it was in creating his own commercially
daring experiments and came up trumps. Only great masters have such
assured touch when they turn the conventional thinking on its head.
For all that Pm remained choosy in the sixties shunning the stunt
films and the devotional movies. Land P who were struggling had no
option but to work on such projects. The best of LP is to be found in
Sant Gyaneswar, Sati Savitri and Lootera and Tarzan comes to Delhi.
They succeeded because in spite of these low brow fare their music
was good and popular. Soon they had moved ahead. Pm by 69 had to
turn towards grade C movies like Puraskar rather than wait for A
grade projects all the time.

As William Goldman says about box office nobody knows nothing. The
first axiom of box office form is everyone has an expiry date.

When one is in creative form B Grade movies, ignorant makers, even
stars without charisma do not matter. Movies like Rickshawala,Raton
ka raja inspite of their B values and poor box office had people
singing Pm's songs. Or take Vijay Anand in Double Cross where he came
a cropper, Pm's score remained the only selling point. And Pm is not
alone Naushad,SJ, OPN et al have all carried entire movies on the
strength of their popular scores in their time. .

When the tide turns the best of them appear less assured. No one has
remained immune to this phenomenon. Be it Hrishikesh Mukerji,
Hitchcock or Ramesh Sippy . Therefore Pm's work during this faze in
spite of being a class apart from others does not appear to many
here as measuring up to his best. By working in so many movies the
problem of maintaining his high standards for all of the projects was
always going to be an impossibility. This was contrary to SDB's
advice and eventually managing all did take its toll on him.

dikshit






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Shyamtanu Banerjee
2008-05-07 10:47:11 UTC
Permalink
He did not give in to the demands of time.. which was mediocrity.. jhopdi me charpayee type songs were the craze
I think it was because people were tired of heavenyl stuff from RD :-) and all past composers... so they needed to change their taste a bit
On a serious note, this was gradual degradation... RDB was not God.. he had to compromise at times, to fit the bill of producers who had no understanding of music... and then... what goes up has to come down someday.. no one can avoid it..
Pancham did become bit predictable at times in the 80s, but then... who does not? His innovative scores like Manzil manzil bombed big time, it will obviously hit the confidence of any composer. Finally, in LoRD's own words.. "After some time, the output quality comes down"; and if you follow his bengali scores in late 80s, you will shiever with pain and sorrow.
Cheers
Shyamu 



----- Original Message ----
From: PRANAY KHATRI <pranayk2001-/***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008 11:19:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?


Hi,

I suppose his PR was not very good, he only wanted to give good music, "FOR WHOM" was not a point of concern for him.

Same is the reason for the downfall of Jatin Lalit also I suppose (They don't even have a single film fare award in their kitty, although they were the best after loRD).

Thanks, Pranay

--- On Wed, 7/5/08, Yogesh Patwardhan <***@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Yogesh Patwardhan <***@yahoo. com>
Subject: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
To: ***@yahoogroups .com
Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 3:03 PM

Vijay anand(goldie) on pancham:
Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon had composers copying his tunes.If only he had been a little more dedicated he’d have left the competition far behind. He gave his best for Dev sahab and me. There were times when I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted an orginal composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in front of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense. And that resulted in his downfall. However, if he’d lived longer I’m sure he would have made a strong comeback and proved that he wasn’t only a genius with western orchestration but was also a master of melody like his father. 1942...A Love Story, his last composition, proved that.
chk this for full article- http://www.screenin dia.com/old/ 20020412/ fnost.html
Now to all memebers,
I consider his actual downfall was never but in the 80's.....
But are you agree with Goldie? To some extent I agree. But what could be some other reasons?
1. He was too much westernized? We know his knowledge of Indian classical but it could be the reason?
2. Not selective on movies or banners?
3. Not dedicated? This is as per Goldie but I didnt get this.....what he wanted to say?
Was he casual about his work? Anyone can throw some light on this?
4. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense...This is again as per goldie and make some sense.
What could be others in your opinion?

Yogesh Patwardhan.

------------ --------- --------- ---
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irfan khan
2008-05-07 18:48:10 UTC
Permalink
dear all
I think a very good thread...thuogh most of the fans will avoid to discuss.
according to me the reasons ..
 
1. in mid 80s there was strong fad of chalu type film making,the padmalaya-jeetendra-jaya prada-sridevi-bappi lahiri team killed not only RD but also some good film makers like Gulzar,hrishikesh mukherji,basu chatterji,yash chopra(80s was trrible for yash raj), BR chopra,vijay anand,raj khosla, ramesh sippy etc some shifted to parallel type cinema/TV (like gulzar, basu BR films, sippys etc) some perished (like Raj Khosla, Vijay Anand, Hrishikesh...)the time continued till QSQT happened in1988 and till then players changed.
This strom effected RD
2.Post Betaab-Rocky time to Sagaar almost 20-25 films of RD with good music failed at box office which includes..some good musicwork in Manzil Manzil, Zamane ko Dikhana hai,Sunny,Bade dil wala, basera, Shakti etc
reason- trend of film making & music was changing but his makers and himself was not (thank God).. this was the time whem "jhopdi me charpai..maamamia ... ek aankh maroo were getting popular.
3. His health was not good in mid 80s (i read ,confirmation req)
4. Among biggies only gulzar, Ramesh behl, Rajesh Khanna, vinod chopra remained loyal
 all incl Nasir hussain(QSQT), Dev annand turned away
 
further analysis awaited from group members 


Irfan Khan
First Marketing Solutions
c/o Shishir Advertisers
Baijnathpara,Raipur(CG.)
Cell- 09301704788

--- On Wed, 7/5/08, Shyamtanu Banerjee <shamtanu_b-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Shyamtanu Banerjee <shamtanu_b-/***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 10:47 AM






He did not give in to the demands of time.. which was mediocrity.. jhopdi me charpayee type songs were the craze
I think it was because people were tired of heavenyl stuff from RD :-) and all past composers... so they needed to change their taste a bit
On a serious note, this was gradual degradation. .. RDB was not God.. he had to compromise at times, to fit the bill of producers who had no understanding of music... and then... what goes up has to come down someday.. no one can avoid it..
Pancham did become bit predictable at times in the 80s, but then... who does not? His innovative scores like Manzil manzil bombed big time, it will obviously hit the confidence of any composer. Finally, in LoRD's own words.. "After some time, the output quality comes down"; and if you follow his bengali scores in late 80s, you will shiever with pain and sorrow.
Cheers
Shyamu 

----- Original Message ----
From: PRANAY KHATRI <pranayk2001@ yahoo.co. in>
To: ***@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008 11:19:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?

Hi,

I suppose his PR was not very good, he only wanted to give good music, "FOR WHOM" was not a point of concern for him.

Same is the reason for the downfall of Jatin Lalit also I suppose (They don't even have a single film fare award in their kitty, although they were the best after loRD).

Thanks, Pranay

--- On Wed, 7/5/08, Yogesh Patwardhan <***@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Yogesh Patwardhan <***@yahoo. com>
Subject: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
To: ***@yahoogroups .com
Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 3:03 PM

Vijay anand(goldie) on pancham:
Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon had composers copying his tunes.If only he had been a little more dedicated he’d have left the competition far behind. He gave his best for Dev sahab and me. There were times when I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted an orginal composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in front of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense. And that resulted in his downfall. However, if he’d lived longer I’m sure he would have made a strong comeback and proved that he wasn’t only a genius with western orchestration but was also a master of melody like his father. 1942...A Love Story, his last composition, proved that.
chk this for full article- http://www.screenin dia.com/old/ 20020412/ fnost..html
Now to all memebers,
I consider his actual downfall was never but in the 80's.....
But are you agree with Goldie? To some extent I agree. But what could be some other reasons?
1. He was too much westernized? We know his knowledge of Indian classical but it could be the reason?
2. Not selective on movies or banners?
3. Not dedicated? This is as per Goldie but I didnt get this.....what he wanted to say?
Was he casual about his work? Anyone can throw some light on this?
4. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense...This is again as per goldie and make some sense.
What could be others in your opinion?

Yogesh Patwardhan.

------------ --------- --------- ---
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nirad_pandya
2008-05-08 05:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Well said Irfan.
When I went through the posts on the thread, I thought of all these
points to write and you have listed them good - almost in toto.

Yes, as you say most of the fans may avoide to discuss this 'good'
thread.
So, lets first change the Subject sentence.
It pains.
Goldie or Yogesh, whosoever used this term 'Downfall' for someone lso
high, so elated, such a 'Boss', I'd say, 'Downfall' doesnt go with
Him.

He simply can not be Down. God is always up there. Creating magics
and marvels.

As reasons stated by others, it was a massive downfall of total Hindi
filmdom, qualities in every arena going down, we all very well know
that.

His Downfall. It pains.
He was always there. If no one listens to a Sili Hawa or a Kabul Se
aaya hai , except the devoted hard core pancham fans , who cared for
quality amongst the 'zopadi' tunes, its the problem for those
ignorant listners and filthy movie goers. Not Him.

Television, Cheap Audio casstette, Video piracies, cassettes at 15
Rs. for anyone, cover versions of great songs in 20 Rs, Acchaa sila
and Hawa Hawa type songs becoming huge rage beyond their deserving
capacity, private Cable channels showing any movie at 9 pm and
everyone watching the film same friday of the fim release - and never
caring they are watching what. A Hifazat, an Ijaazat, a
Hirasat..doesnt matter. Its just a new movie on 'channel'.
A new cassette for tonight's movie- that was the critera. No
selection. no details. Director ? Music director ? What.
The late 80s were so chaotic. Sooo Traumatic. Traumatic for people
like us who cared for artistic output from a craftily made movie.
Traumatic for all those stalwarts who put the Hindi cinema up there,
with their great efforts and detailed work.
I would in fact say that if one didn't have a 'downfall' during that
time in India, he was a either a mediocre in his own area or knew how
to compromise heavily.
Irfan's list tell it all. From Gulzar to Basu Chatterjee. All tried
hard to keep the big screen quality healthy. Then settled inside the
idiot box for little survival.

Moderator, we should change the word Downfall. His downfall.
Or make it 'Reason for Downfall.'
General - of India.

Nirad P.Pandya
Vadodara
Post by irfan khan
dear all
I think a very good thread...thuogh most of the fans will avoid to discuss.
according to me the reasons ..
 
1. in mid 80s there was strong fad of chalu type film making,the
padmalaya-jeetendra-jaya prada-sridevi-bappi lahiri team killed not
only RD but also some good film makers like Gulzar,hrishikesh
mukherji,basu chatterji,yash chopra(80s was trrible for yash raj), BR
chopra,vijay anand,raj khosla, ramesh sippy etc some shifted to
parallel type cinema/TV (like gulzar, basu BR films, sippys etc) some
perished (like Raj Khosla, Vijay Anand, Hrishikesh...)the time
continued till QSQT happened in1988 and till then players changed.
Post by irfan khan
This strom effected RD
2.Post Betaab-Rocky time to Sagaar almost 20-25 films of RD with
good music failed at box office which includes..some good musicwork
in Manzil Manzil, Zamane ko Dikhana hai,Sunny,Bade dil wala, basera,
Shakti etc
Post by irfan khan
reason- trend of film making & music was changing but his makers
and himself was not (thank God).. this was the time whem "jhopdi me
charpai..maamamia ... ek aankh maroo were getting popular.
Post by irfan khan
3. His health was not good in mid 80s (i read ,confirmation req)
4. Among biggies only gulzar, Ramesh behl, Rajesh Khanna, vinod chopra remained loyal
 all incl Nasir hussain(QSQT), Dev annand turned away
 
further analysis awaited from group members 
Irfan Khan
First Marketing Solutions
c/o Shishir Advertisers
Baijnathpara,Raipur(CG.)
Cell- 09301704788
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 10:47 AM
He did not give in to the demands of time.. which was mediocrity..
jhopdi me charpayee type songs were the craze
Post by irfan khan
I think it was because people were tired of heavenyl stuff from
RD :-) and all past composers... so they needed to change their taste
a bit
Post by irfan khan
On a serious note, this was gradual degradation. .. RDB was not
God.. he had to compromise at times, to fit the bill of producers who
had no understanding of music... and then... what goes up has to come
down someday.. no one can avoid it..
Post by irfan khan
Pancham did become bit predictable at times in the 80s, but then...
who does not? His innovative scores like Manzil manzil bombed big
time, it will obviously hit the confidence of any composer. Finally,
in LoRD's own words.. "After some time, the output quality comes
down"; and if you follow his bengali scores in late 80s, you will
shiever with pain and sorrow.
Post by irfan khan
Cheers
Shyamu 
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008 11:19:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Hi,
I suppose his PR was not very good, he only wanted to give good
music, "FOR WHOM" was not a point of concern for him.
Post by irfan khan
Same is the reason for the downfall of Jatin Lalit also I suppose
(They don't even have a single film fare award in their kitty,
although they were the best after loRD).
Post by irfan khan
Thanks, Pranay
Subject: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 3:03 PM
Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon had composers
copying his tunes.If only he had been a little more dedicated he’d
have left the competition far behind. He gave his best for Dev sahab
and me. There were times when I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted
an orginal composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in front
of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune. Pancham’s problem
was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have
such a keen musical sense. And that resulted in his downfall.
However, if he’d lived longer I’m sure he would have made a
strong comeback and proved that he wasn’t only a genius with
western orchestration but was also a master of melody like his
father. 1942...A Love Story, his last composition, proved that.
Post by irfan khan
chk this for full article- http://www.screenin dia.com/old/
20020412/ fnost..html
Post by irfan khan
Now to all memebers,
I consider his actual downfall was never but in the 80's.....
But are you agree with Goldie? To some extent I agree. But what could be some other reasons?
1. He was too much westernized? We know his knowledge of Indian
classical but it could be the reason?
Post by irfan khan
2. Not selective on movies or banners?
3. Not dedicated? This is as per Goldie but I didnt get
this.....what he wanted to say?
Post by irfan khan
Was he casual about his work? Anyone can throw some light on this?
4. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to
directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense...This is again
as per goldie and make some sense.
Post by irfan khan
What could be others in your opinion?
Yogesh Patwardhan.
------------ --------- --------- ---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo!
group at http://in.promos. yahoo.com/ groups/
Post by irfan khan
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Govind Maindargikar
2008-05-08 07:13:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Friends,

Downfall in professional/personal life is unavoidable. In every person, no matter how big celebrety he/she is, every one has to go thru this. However i would say, panchmada did not bother too much about it, it was phase like that, and in 80's frankly speaking MD like Bappi lahiri spoiled the entire music mantra, but we all know where is he today and his music? If he was so talented, why is wasting his time on TV show? Everyone knows, his phase is over.

Panchmda would neither seen banner nor actor/producer while composing. Even smallest budget movies of him has great music, because he was great composer.

Downfall can may not be appropriate, but can be termed as Bad phase.

Jai pacham}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}





To: pancham-hHKSG33Tihig7M29m/***@public.gmane.org: nirad_pandya-/***@public.gmane.org: Thu, 8 May 2008 05:47:12 +0000Subject: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his downfall?




Well said Irfan.When I went through the posts on the thread, I thought of all these points to write and you have listed them good - almost in toto.Yes, as you say most of the fans may avoide to discuss this 'good' thread.So, lets first change the Subject sentence. It pains. Goldie or Yogesh, whosoever used this term 'Downfall' for someone lso high, so elated, such a 'Boss', I'd say, 'Downfall' doesnt go with Him.He simply can not be Down. God is always up there. Creating magics and marvels.As reasons stated by others, it was a massive downfall of total Hindi filmdom, qualities in every arena going down, we all very well know that.His Downfall. It pains.He was always there. If no one listens to a Sili Hawa or a Kabul Se aaya hai , except the devoted hard core pancham fans , who cared for quality amongst the 'zopadi' tunes, its the problem for those ignorant listners and filthy movie goers. Not Him.Television, Cheap Audio casstette, Video piracies, cassettes at 15 Rs. for anyone, cover versions of great songs in 20 Rs, Acchaa sila and Hawa Hawa type songs becoming huge rage beyond their deserving capacity, private Cable channels showing any movie at 9 pm and everyone watching the film same friday of the fim release - and never caring they are watching what. A Hifazat, an Ijaazat, a Hirasat..doesnt matter. Its just a new movie on 'channel'.A new cassette for tonight's movie- that was the critera. No selection. no details. Director ? Music director ? What. The late 80s were so chaotic. Sooo Traumatic. Traumatic for people like us who cared for artistic output from a craftily made movie. Traumatic for all those stalwarts who put the Hindi cinema up there, with their great efforts and detailed work.I would in fact say that if one didn't have a 'downfall' during that time in India, he was a either a mediocre in his own area or knew how to compromise heavily.Irfan's list tell it all. From Gulzar to Basu Chatterjee. All tried hard to keep the big screen quality healthy. Then settled inside the idiot box for little survival.Moderator, we should change the word Downfall. His downfall.Or make it 'Reason for Downfall.'General - of India.Nirad P.PandyaVadodara--- In pancham-***@public.gmane.org, irfan khan <***@...> wrote:>> dear all> I think a very good thread...thuogh most of the fans will avoid to discuss.> according to me the reasons ..>  > 1. in mid 80s there was strong fad of chalu type film making,the padmalaya-jeetendra-jaya prada-sridevi-bappi lahiri team killed not only RD but also some good film makers like Gulzar,hrishikesh mukherji,basu chatterji,yash chopra(80s was trrible for yash raj), BR chopra,vijay anand,raj khosla, ramesh sippy etc some shifted to parallel type cinema/TV (like gulzar, basu BR films, sippys etc) some perished (like Raj Khosla, Vijay Anand, Hrishikesh...)the time continued till QSQT happened in1988 and till then players changed.> This strom effected RD> 2.Post Betaab-Rocky time to Sagaar almost 20-25 films of RD with good music failed at box office which includes..some good musicwork in Manzil Manzil, Zamane ko Dikhana hai,Sunny,Bade dil wala, basera, Shakti etc> reason- trend of film making & music was changing but his makers and himself was not (thank God).. this was the time whem "jhopdi me charpai..maamamia ... ek aankh maroo were getting popular.> 3. His health was not good in mid 80s (i read ,confirmation req)> 4. Among biggies only gulzar, Ramesh behl, Rajesh Khanna, vinod chopra remained loyal>  all incl Nasir hussain(QSQT), Dev annand turned away>  > further analysis awaited from group members > > > Irfan Khan> First Marketing Solutions> c/o Shishir Advertisers> Baijnathpara,Raipur(CG.)> Cell- 09301704788> > --- On Wed, 7/5/08, Shyamtanu Banerjee <***@...> wrote:> > From: Shyamtanu Banerjee <***@...>> Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?> To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org> Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 10:47 AM> > > > > > > He did not give in to the demands of time.. which was mediocrity.. jhopdi me charpayee type songs were the craze> I think it was because people were tired of heavenyl stuff from RD :-) and all past composers... so they needed to change their taste a bit> On a serious note, this was gradual degradation. .. RDB was not God.. he had to compromise at times, to fit the bill of producers who had no understanding of music... and then... what goes up has to come down someday.. no one can avoid it.. > Pancham did become bit predictable at times in the 80s, but then... who does not? His innovative scores like Manzil manzil bombed big time, it will obviously hit the confidence of any composer. Finally, in LoRD's own words.. "After some time, the output quality comes down"; and if you follow his bengali scores in late 80s, you will shiever with pain and sorrow.> Cheers> Shyamu > > ----- Original Message ----> From: PRANAY KHATRI <pranayk2001@ yahoo.co. in>> To: ***@yahoogroups .com> Sent: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008 11:19:34 AM> Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?> > Hi,> > I suppose his PR was not very good, he only wanted to give good music, "FOR WHOM" was not a point of concern for him.> > Same is the reason for the downfall of Jatin Lalit also I suppose (They don't even have a single film fare award in their kitty, although they were the best after loRD).> > Thanks, Pranay> > --- On Wed, 7/5/08, Yogesh Patwardhan <***@yahoo. com> wrote:> > From: Yogesh Patwardhan <***@yahoo. com>> Subject: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?> To: ***@yahoogroups .com> Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 3:03 PM> > Vijay anand(goldie) on pancham:> Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon had composers copying his tunes.If only he had been a little more dedicated he’d have left the competition far behind. He gave his best for Dev sahab and me. There were times when I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted an orginal composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in front of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense. And that resulted in his downfall. However, if he’d lived longer I’m sure he would have made a strong comeback and proved that he wasn’t only a genius with western orchestration but was also a master of melody like his father. 1942...A Love Story, his last composition, proved that.> chk this for full article- http://www.screenin dia.com/old/ 20020412/ fnost..html> Now to all memebers,> I consider his actual downfall was never but in the 80's.....> But are you agree with Goldie? To some extent I agree. But what could be some other reasons? > 1. He was too much westernized? We know his knowledge of Indian classical but it could be the reason?> 2. Not selective on movies or banners?> 3. Not dedicated? This is as per Goldie but I didnt get this.....what he wanted to say?> Was he casual about his work? Anyone can throw some light on this?> 4. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense...This is again as per goldie and make some sense.> What could be others in your opinion? > > Yogesh Patwardhan.> > ------------ --------- --------- ---> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos. yahoo.com/ groups/> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Yahoo! For Good. Give and get cool things for free, reduce waste and help our planet. Plus find hidden Yahoo! treasure > > http://green. yahoo.com/ uk/earth- day/> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meet people who discuss and share your passions. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/bestofyahoo/>






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seshadribpl
2008-05-07 22:05:55 UTC
Permalink
I think it is not one single reason that led to this situation. Some
may be attributed to him, others may be just plain bad luck.

1. Movies themselves flopping (nothing that RD could be faulted for).
2. His health problems.
3. Kishore's departure towards the end.

Apart from all these, IMHO, there is one reason that I can't quite
explain, but will try (maybe the seniors can help). All his gems, as
well as hits from other MDs from that time as well as today, had
catchy tunes. Songs that you could hum, songs that could be sung
without the sentence getting broken by orchestration. For example,
take songs like Mere Naina Sawan Bhadon, Jai Jai Shiv Shankar and
Jhopdi Mein Charpai (thanks, Shyamu). Not withstanding their being
poles apart in terms of "quality" as far as the classes go, the masses
lapped them up. Why? Not because they were impressed by Rajesh
Khanna's amazing talent to generate all chords from the guitar without
moving his left hand or the jumping jack's athletic abilities. Just
because these songs were hummable (gunguna sakte hain). I remember
being admonished by my mother for singing this song in the bathroom
(the jhopdi song, I mean :o), but hey, it was catchy and so was Aa Aa
Ee Ee Ooo Ooo Ay Ai Odibaba Odibaba Odibaba. So, in the end, it boiled
down to what sold and what didn't. When Anu Malik and his ilk said
that Chalo ek gaana thokte hain, it literally meant, let't get
something out the door that can rake in the moolah. Soon, before we
realised, we had "compositions" with catchy tunes that would repeat a
single word a zillion times over, accompanied by earth-shaking bass,
telecast to death on the channels, fuelled by the audio companies.

Again, no offence meant to anyone, dead or alive. As Mithun said in
some old movie, it holds true to this day: Public ke paas time nahin
hai. Move over poetry, cacophony is in, orchestration is out, eye
candy is in, the soul is out.

Peace.

Seshadri


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suwag11
2008-05-08 09:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Superb analysis, Sheshadri; enjoyed reading it. In addition to the
factors you've mentioned (in that order) I'd add a 4th one: perhaps
RD should have worked more or earlier or both with singers such as
Sanu, Udit Narayan and Alka G. He persisted for too long with
Yesterday's men' like Shailendra Singh, Suresh Wadkar etc. IMO.

If I have to select one factor, though, it will have to be the first
one from your list. Till about 1985 RD had at least one hit every
year to counterbalance the flops. That equation changed from 1986
onwards; all the films flopped. I had read a silly article in a Hindi
Magazine (I think it was Mayapuri, which I used to browse through,
just to see whether there was anything on RD:))which claimed that RD
was jinxed. There were some other articles in other film magazines (I
don't remember the details) which said that RD was out of sync with
the tastes of the new generation. Don't know how prevalent such views
were in the industry at the time.

This is semantics, I suppose, but I'd use the phrase 'bad phase'
rather than 'downfall'. In the late 80s and early 90s RD was
certainly down, but he wasn't completely 'out'. Even in his low phase
he had big banner films such as Dacait (Rahul Rawel), Hifazat (Prayag
Raj), Aag Se Khelenge (NN Sippy), Parinda (VVC), Apne Apne, Chor Pe
Mor and Indrajeet (All Ramesh Bahal), Jurrat (Rajendra Kumar) Tadap
(Sohanlal Kanwar), Rama O Rama (Mirza Brothers), Joshilay (Sibte
Hasan Rizvi / Shekhar Kapoor)Dushman (Shakti Samantha) etc. Then
there were some others such as Gulzar (Izaazat, Libaas), Hrishikesh
Mukherji (Namumkeen) Rajesh Khanna (Jai Shiv Shankar) and BR Ishara
(Janam Se Pehale) who worked with him during this period. However
such was RD'luck (or bad luck) that except Parinda all the films
either flopped or did not get released (at least in Mumbai)(e.g.
Tadap, Libaas, Jai Shiv Shankar, Janam Se Pehale). Namumkeen and
Izaazat, for example, flopped so badly that they were removed from
the cinemas in two weeks. (Namumkeen, incidently, was the last film
to be shown in Mumbai's famous Opera House Cinema which shut down for
good after that. It was also the last film in which RD and Hrishikesh
Mukherji worked together.)In the last couple of years there were
other producers and directors like Ramgopal Varma (Drohi),
Priyadarshan (Gardish), to name but two, who worked with him.

Whether RD's music stopped selling because of bad luck or because it
wasn't good will be a matter of opinion, but it was that that brought
on the bad phase which lasted for 6-7 years. If you look at the
career graphs of most MDs in HFM, you find that they generally peaked
in their 20s and 30s. Almost all of them showed (at least
comemrcially) a downward curve by the time they neared 50. The only
two exceptions I can think of are Jaikishan (of S-J) and SD Burman.
Jaikishan died in his early 40s, so we would not know how he would
have fared had he lived. (If I have to make a guess, I'd say that he
would have found the going tough. S-J's music in the late sixties was
becoming, IMO, shrill, repetitive, and predictable.) SDB was amazing.
He is the only one who not only gave popualr music till the end, it
is also generally acknowledged that the quality did not suffer. But
then SDB never concerned himself with the number games and paced his
output well. That's why, perhaps, he lasted for as long as he did.

RD maanged to end his musical career on a high note with 1942--ALS.
Since he died before the film was released we shall not know whether
he would have been able to regain his top spot. He himself thought
that was unlikely. In an interview given a few months before his
death he had said (I am quoting this from memory) something like he
was different person from what he was in the seventies, and,
accordingly, his music, too, was different from that which he gave
then. he had gone on to say that he was hopeful that he would
continue giving interesting music, but wasn't sure whether whether it
would become popular.


Ajay
Post by seshadribpl
I think it is not one single reason that led to this situation. Some
may be attributed to him, others may be just plain bad luck.
1. Movies themselves flopping (nothing that RD could be faulted for).
2. His health problems.
3. Kishore's departure towards the end.
Apart from all these, IMHO, there is one reason that I can't quite
explain, but will try (maybe the seniors can help). All his gems, as
well as hits from other MDs from that time as well as today, had
catchy tunes. Songs that you could hum, songs that could be sung
without the sentence getting broken by orchestration. For example,
take songs like Mere Naina Sawan Bhadon, Jai Jai Shiv Shankar and
Jhopdi Mein Charpai (thanks, Shyamu). Not withstanding their being
poles apart in terms of "quality" as far as the classes go, the masses
lapped them up. Why? Not because they were impressed by Rajesh
Khanna's amazing talent to generate all chords from the guitar
without
Post by seshadribpl
moving his left hand or the jumping jack's athletic abilities. Just
because these songs were hummable (gunguna sakte hain). I remember
being admonished by my mother for singing this song in the bathroom
(the jhopdi song, I mean :o), but hey, it was catchy and so was Aa Aa
Ee Ee Ooo Ooo Ay Ai Odibaba Odibaba Odibaba. So, in the end, it boiled
down to what sold and what didn't. When Anu Malik and his ilk said
that Chalo ek gaana thokte hain, it literally meant, let't get
something out the door that can rake in the moolah. Soon, before we
realised, we had "compositions" with catchy tunes that would repeat a
single word a zillion times over, accompanied by earth-shaking bass,
telecast to death on the channels, fuelled by the audio companies.
Again, no offence meant to anyone, dead or alive. As Mithun said in
some old movie, it holds true to this day: Public ke paas time nahin
hai. Move over poetry, cacophony is in, orchestration is out, eye
candy is in, the soul is out.
Peace.
Seshadri
------------------------------------

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Ali Rashid
2008-05-11 20:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ajay,

Jaikishan passed away at a very young age, it was very unfortunate.
We don't know what SJ as a team would have produced later on had the
circumstances been different. I think SJ were producing excellent
songs and great music in the late 60's to early 70's. I agree with
you, most MD's do hit a peak at certain points in their career.

Shankar kept on producing great music after Jai's death, but in
general I think it was never the same as before. How about Roshan, he
produced great music right till the end. Like Jaikishan and MM, he
also passed away too soon, but his "Anokhi Raat" was nice and he
showed no signs of being off-track in his music. We can also add
Madan Mohan to the list, his "Laila Majnu" and "Mausam" were triumphs
and yet again showed his class and genius. His quality never suffered
as well. SDB ofcourse was excellent right till the end, at his age,
he was able to come up with so many wonderful gems.

I also agree with RD's music being more mature in the 80's (in
reference to one of your other posts). His songs in general during
that decade may not have been as creative or as full of
experimentation like before (IMO), but they still had class and were
great. Personally, my favourite RD periods are the 60's and 70's,
however I have many favourites songs from the 80's as well.

Regards

Ali
Post by suwag11
Superb analysis, Sheshadri; enjoyed reading it. In addition to the
factors you've mentioned (in that order) I'd add a 4th one: perhaps
RD should have worked more or earlier or both with singers such as
Sanu, Udit Narayan and Alka G. He persisted for too long with
Yesterday's men' like Shailendra Singh, Suresh Wadkar etc. IMO.
If I have to select one factor, though, it will have to be the
first
Post by suwag11
one from your list. Till about 1985 RD had at least one hit every
year to counterbalance the flops. That equation changed from 1986
onwards; all the films flopped. I had read a silly article in a Hindi
Magazine (I think it was Mayapuri, which I used to browse through,
just to see whether there was anything on RD:))which claimed that RD
was jinxed. There were some other articles in other film magazines (I
don't remember the details) which said that RD was out of sync with
the tastes of the new generation. Don't know how prevalent such views
were in the industry at the time.
This is semantics, I suppose, but I'd use the phrase 'bad phase'
rather than 'downfall'. In the late 80s and early 90s RD was
certainly down, but he wasn't completely 'out'. Even in his low phase
he had big banner films such as Dacait (Rahul Rawel), Hifazat
(Prayag
Post by suwag11
Raj), Aag Se Khelenge (NN Sippy), Parinda (VVC), Apne Apne, Chor Pe
Mor and Indrajeet (All Ramesh Bahal), Jurrat (Rajendra Kumar) Tadap
(Sohanlal Kanwar), Rama O Rama (Mirza Brothers), Joshilay (Sibte
Hasan Rizvi / Shekhar Kapoor)Dushman (Shakti Samantha) etc. Then
there were some others such as Gulzar (Izaazat, Libaas), Hrishikesh
Mukherji (Namumkeen) Rajesh Khanna (Jai Shiv Shankar) and BR Ishara
(Janam Se Pehale) who worked with him during this period. However
such was RD'luck (or bad luck) that except Parinda all the films
either flopped or did not get released (at least in Mumbai)(e.g.
Tadap, Libaas, Jai Shiv Shankar, Janam Se Pehale). Namumkeen and
Izaazat, for example, flopped so badly that they were removed from
the cinemas in two weeks. (Namumkeen, incidently, was the last film
to be shown in Mumbai's famous Opera House Cinema which shut down for
good after that. It was also the last film in which RD and
Hrishikesh
Post by suwag11
Mukherji worked together.)In the last couple of years there were
other producers and directors like Ramgopal Varma (Drohi),
Priyadarshan (Gardish), to name but two, who worked with him.
Whether RD's music stopped selling because of bad luck or because it
wasn't good will be a matter of opinion, but it was that that
brought
Post by suwag11
on the bad phase which lasted for 6-7 years. If you look at the
career graphs of most MDs in HFM, you find that they generally
peaked
Post by suwag11
in their 20s and 30s. Almost all of them showed (at least
comemrcially) a downward curve by the time they neared 50. The only
two exceptions I can think of are Jaikishan (of S-J) and SD Burman.
Jaikishan died in his early 40s, so we would not know how he would
have fared had he lived. (If I have to make a guess, I'd say that he
would have found the going tough. S-J's music in the late sixties was
becoming, IMO, shrill, repetitive, and predictable.) SDB was
amazing.
Post by suwag11
He is the only one who not only gave popualr music till the end, it
is also generally acknowledged that the quality did not suffer. But
then SDB never concerned himself with the number games and paced his
output well. That's why, perhaps, he lasted for as long as he did.
RD maanged to end his musical career on a high note with 1942--ALS.
Since he died before the film was released we shall not know
whether
Post by suwag11
he would have been able to regain his top spot. He himself thought
that was unlikely. In an interview given a few months before his
death he had said (I am quoting this from memory) something like he
was different person from what he was in the seventies, and,
accordingly, his music, too, was different from that which he gave
then. he had gone on to say that he was hopeful that he would
continue giving interesting music, but wasn't sure whether whether it
would become popular.
Ajay
Post by seshadribpl
I think it is not one single reason that led to this situation. Some
may be attributed to him, others may be just plain bad luck.
1. Movies themselves flopping (nothing that RD could be faulted
for).
Post by seshadribpl
2. His health problems.
3. Kishore's departure towards the end.
Apart from all these, IMHO, there is one reason that I can't quite
explain, but will try (maybe the seniors can help). All his gems, as
well as hits from other MDs from that time as well as today, had
catchy tunes. Songs that you could hum, songs that could be sung
without the sentence getting broken by orchestration. For example,
take songs like Mere Naina Sawan Bhadon, Jai Jai Shiv Shankar and
Jhopdi Mein Charpai (thanks, Shyamu). Not withstanding their being
poles apart in terms of "quality" as far as the classes go, the
masses
Post by seshadribpl
lapped them up. Why? Not because they were impressed by Rajesh
Khanna's amazing talent to generate all chords from the guitar
without
Post by seshadribpl
moving his left hand or the jumping jack's athletic abilities. Just
because these songs were hummable (gunguna sakte hain). I remember
being admonished by my mother for singing this song in the
bathroom
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
(the jhopdi song, I mean :o), but hey, it was catchy and so was
Aa
Post by suwag11
Aa
Post by seshadribpl
Ee Ee Ooo Ooo Ay Ai Odibaba Odibaba Odibaba. So, in the end, it
boiled
Post by seshadribpl
down to what sold and what didn't. When Anu Malik and his ilk said
that Chalo ek gaana thokte hain, it literally meant, let't get
something out the door that can rake in the moolah. Soon, before we
realised, we had "compositions" with catchy tunes that would
repeat
Post by suwag11
a
Post by seshadribpl
single word a zillion times over, accompanied by earth-shaking bass,
telecast to death on the channels, fuelled by the audio
companies.
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
Again, no offence meant to anyone, dead or alive. As Mithun said in
some old movie, it holds true to this day: Public ke paas time nahin
hai. Move over poetry, cacophony is in, orchestration is out, eye
candy is in, the soul is out.
Peace.
Seshadri
------------------------------------

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Ali Rashid
2008-05-11 20:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Would like to add to my previous sentence, it should read as:

"We don't know what SJ as a team would have produced later on had the
circumstances been different. I think they would have continued to
produce great music had Jai lived."

Regards

Ali
Post by sagar kopardekar
Hi Ajay,
Jaikishan passed away at a very young age, it was very unfortunate.
We don't know what SJ as a team would have produced later on had the
circumstances been different. I think SJ were producing excellent
songs and great music in the late 60's to early 70's. I agree with
you, most MD's do hit a peak at certain points in their career.
Shankar kept on producing great music after Jai's death, but in
general I think it was never the same as before. How about Roshan, he
produced great music right till the end. Like Jaikishan and MM, he
also passed away too soon, but his "Anokhi Raat" was nice and he
showed no signs of being off-track in his music. We can also add
Madan Mohan to the list, his "Laila Majnu" and "Mausam" were
triumphs
Post by sagar kopardekar
and yet again showed his class and genius. His quality never
suffered
Post by sagar kopardekar
as well. SDB ofcourse was excellent right till the end, at his age,
he was able to come up with so many wonderful gems.
I also agree with RD's music being more mature in the 80's (in
reference to one of your other posts). His songs in general during
that decade may not have been as creative or as full of
experimentation like before (IMO), but they still had class and were
great. Personally, my favourite RD periods are the 60's and 70's,
however I have many favourites songs from the 80's as well.
Regards
Ali
Post by suwag11
Superb analysis, Sheshadri; enjoyed reading it. In addition to the
perhaps
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
RD should have worked more or earlier or both with singers such as
Sanu, Udit Narayan and Alka G. He persisted for too long with
Yesterday's men' like Shailendra Singh, Suresh Wadkar etc. IMO.
If I have to select one factor, though, it will have to be the
first
Post by suwag11
one from your list. Till about 1985 RD had at least one hit every
year to counterbalance the flops. That equation changed from 1986
onwards; all the films flopped. I had read a silly article in a
Hindi
Post by suwag11
Magazine (I think it was Mayapuri, which I used to browse
through,
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
just to see whether there was anything on RD:))which claimed that
RD
Post by suwag11
was jinxed. There were some other articles in other film
magazines
Post by sagar kopardekar
(I
Post by suwag11
don't remember the details) which said that RD was out of sync with
the tastes of the new generation. Don't know how prevalent such
views
Post by suwag11
were in the industry at the time.
This is semantics, I suppose, but I'd use the phrase 'bad phase'
rather than 'downfall'. In the late 80s and early 90s RD was
certainly down, but he wasn't completely 'out'. Even in his low
phase
Post by suwag11
he had big banner films such as Dacait (Rahul Rawel), Hifazat
(Prayag
Post by suwag11
Raj), Aag Se Khelenge (NN Sippy), Parinda (VVC), Apne Apne, Chor Pe
Mor and Indrajeet (All Ramesh Bahal), Jurrat (Rajendra Kumar) Tadap
(Sohanlal Kanwar), Rama O Rama (Mirza Brothers), Joshilay (Sibte
Hasan Rizvi / Shekhar Kapoor)Dushman (Shakti Samantha) etc. Then
there were some others such as Gulzar (Izaazat, Libaas),
Hrishikesh
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
Mukherji (Namumkeen) Rajesh Khanna (Jai Shiv Shankar) and BR
Ishara
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
(Janam Se Pehale) who worked with him during this period. However
such was RD'luck (or bad luck) that except Parinda all the films
either flopped or did not get released (at least in Mumbai)(e.g.
Tadap, Libaas, Jai Shiv Shankar, Janam Se Pehale). Namumkeen and
Izaazat, for example, flopped so badly that they were removed from
the cinemas in two weeks. (Namumkeen, incidently, was the last film
to be shown in Mumbai's famous Opera House Cinema which shut down
for
Post by suwag11
good after that. It was also the last film in which RD and
Hrishikesh
Post by suwag11
Mukherji worked together.)In the last couple of years there were
other producers and directors like Ramgopal Varma (Drohi),
Priyadarshan (Gardish), to name but two, who worked with him.
Whether RD's music stopped selling because of bad luck or because
it
Post by suwag11
wasn't good will be a matter of opinion, but it was that that
brought
Post by suwag11
on the bad phase which lasted for 6-7 years. If you look at the
career graphs of most MDs in HFM, you find that they generally
peaked
Post by suwag11
in their 20s and 30s. Almost all of them showed (at least
comemrcially) a downward curve by the time they neared 50. The only
two exceptions I can think of are Jaikishan (of S-J) and SD
Burman.
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
Jaikishan died in his early 40s, so we would not know how he
would
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
have fared had he lived. (If I have to make a guess, I'd say that
he
Post by suwag11
would have found the going tough. S-J's music in the late sixties
was
Post by suwag11
becoming, IMO, shrill, repetitive, and predictable.) SDB was
amazing.
Post by suwag11
He is the only one who not only gave popualr music till the end, it
is also generally acknowledged that the quality did not suffer. But
then SDB never concerned himself with the number games and paced
his
Post by suwag11
output well. That's why, perhaps, he lasted for as long as he did.
RD maanged to end his musical career on a high note with 1942--
ALS.
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
Since he died before the film was released we shall not know
whether
Post by suwag11
he would have been able to regain his top spot. He himself
thought
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
that was unlikely. In an interview given a few months before his
death he had said (I am quoting this from memory) something like he
was different person from what he was in the seventies, and,
accordingly, his music, too, was different from that which he gave
then. he had gone on to say that he was hopeful that he would
continue giving interesting music, but wasn't sure whether
whether
Post by sagar kopardekar
it
Post by suwag11
would become popular.
Ajay
Post by seshadribpl
I think it is not one single reason that led to this situation.
Some
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
may be attributed to him, others may be just plain bad luck.
1. Movies themselves flopping (nothing that RD could be faulted
for).
Post by seshadribpl
2. His health problems.
3. Kishore's departure towards the end.
Apart from all these, IMHO, there is one reason that I can't quite
explain, but will try (maybe the seniors can help). All his
gems,
Post by sagar kopardekar
as
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
well as hits from other MDs from that time as well as today, had
catchy tunes. Songs that you could hum, songs that could be sung
without the sentence getting broken by orchestration. For
example,
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
take songs like Mere Naina Sawan Bhadon, Jai Jai Shiv Shankar and
Jhopdi Mein Charpai (thanks, Shyamu). Not withstanding their being
poles apart in terms of "quality" as far as the classes go, the
masses
Post by seshadribpl
lapped them up. Why? Not because they were impressed by Rajesh
Khanna's amazing talent to generate all chords from the guitar
without
Post by seshadribpl
moving his left hand or the jumping jack's athletic abilities.
Just
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
because these songs were hummable (gunguna sakte hain). I
remember
Post by sagar kopardekar
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
being admonished by my mother for singing this song in the
bathroom
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
(the jhopdi song, I mean :o), but hey, it was catchy and so was
Aa
Post by suwag11
Aa
Post by seshadribpl
Ee Ee Ooo Ooo Ay Ai Odibaba Odibaba Odibaba. So, in the end, it
boiled
Post by seshadribpl
down to what sold and what didn't. When Anu Malik and his ilk said
that Chalo ek gaana thokte hain, it literally meant, let't get
something out the door that can rake in the moolah. Soon,
before
Post by sagar kopardekar
we
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
realised, we had "compositions" with catchy tunes that would
repeat
Post by suwag11
a
Post by seshadribpl
single word a zillion times over, accompanied by earth-shaking
bass,
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
telecast to death on the channels, fuelled by the audio
companies.
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
Again, no offence meant to anyone, dead or alive. As Mithun
said
Post by sagar kopardekar
in
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
some old movie, it holds true to this day: Public ke paas time
nahin
Post by suwag11
Post by seshadribpl
hai. Move over poetry, cacophony is in, orchestration is out, eye
candy is in, the soul is out.
Peace.
Seshadri
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Shireesh Joshi
2008-05-28 06:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi all. Writing on this forum after many many months.

I would point to one event and one reason as probably
at the heart of it all. While there are many
contributing factors - movies with his music flopping
in the 80s, movies getting delayed/shelved, health etc
etc. my take on the turning point is QSQT.

Movies get written for heroes and we remember eras in
bollywood through the heroes that ruled. Sure there
have been leading heroines who have ruled too but
bollywood has revolved for the most part around
heroes.

RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.

Anand Milind-QSQT, Nadeem Shravan-Aashiqui, Raam
Laxman-MPK kicked off the 90s sound and heroes and RD
wasnt there. He wasnt there when they turned to Jatin
Lalit (Shahrukh - RBGG debut and Aamir - JJWS). This
was return to melody after the 80s cacophony and the
first in the sequence was Nasir Hussain Banner QSQT.
That for me is the seminal moment. Now on to the why?

I believe reason has to do with the flop movies that
others too have mentioned. It was inevitable at some
stage some director was going to choose a young music
director over RD. Nasir Hussain banner was to launch
Aamir as a romantic lead. And this is where it gets
more specific. Manzil Manzil and Zabardast from NH
banner were no patch on even ZKDH let along HKKN/YKB.
I dont know if they recovered money or not but they
were not hits. The banner handed the mantle to young
Mansoor Khan for QSQT. Non-success of previous two
movies along with new director was as good a prompt as
any to review everything afresh including MD. And then
it was a love story. RD used to be the MD of choice
for launching new stars in romantic leads. Shashi Rao
once wrote a pretty exhaustive list of such movies in
80s on this forum. However many of these did not
succeed e.g. the one launching Raveena¡¯s brother. It
seems inevitable therefore the flops of Manzil
Manzil/Zabardast on one hand and that of romantic new
star launches on the other led to review of RD as
choice for QSQT, made easier by change of director at
helm. It was ironically the same banner that chose RD
over SJ quarter of a century earlier and made him our
God. Despite a beautiful debut, RD only started making
waves from Teesri Manzil. So in some ways the RD story
really starts and ends with this banner. Losing Sippy
to LP and Akayla did not matter. But this one did.

What could have changed it? Probably QSQT could not
have been changed. But had RD been a shrewd
businessman or had members who were they would have
lobbied to get movie(s) with the 90s heroes. But we
all know he wasnt and neither was anyone else on his
team.

Much has been said about the Ram Lakhan episode and
what it did to RD. But Bollywood had moved on past RD
even before Ram Lakhan, and Ram Lakhan was also
Anil/Jackie - 80s heroes. If only he had a hit with a
90s star it could have been different.

That's my take. Would love to hear others' views.

Shireesh
Post by sagar kopardekar
Hi Ajay,
Jaikishan passed away at a very young age, it was
very unfortunate.
We don't know what SJ as a team would have produced
later on had the
circumstances been different. I think SJ were
producing excellent
songs and great music in the late 60's to early
70's. I agree with
you, most MD's do hit a peak at certain points in
their career.
Shankar kept on producing great music after Jai's
death, but in
general I think it was never the same as before. How
about Roshan, he
produced great music right till the end. Like
Jaikishan and MM, he
also passed away too soon, but his "Anokhi Raat" was
nice and he
showed no signs of being off-track in his music. We
can also add
Madan Mohan to the list, his "Laila Majnu" and
"Mausam" were triumphs
and yet again showed his class and genius. His
quality never suffered
as well. SDB ofcourse was excellent right till the
end, at his age,
he was able to come up with so many wonderful gems.
I also agree with RD's music being more mature in
the 80's (in
reference to one of your other posts). His songs in
general during
that decade may not have been as creative or as full
of
experimentation like before (IMO), but they still
had class and were
great. Personally, my favourite RD periods are the
60's and 70's,
however I have many favourites songs from the 80's
as well.
Regards
Ali
Post by suwag11
Superb analysis, Sheshadri; enjoyed reading it. In
addition to the
Post by suwag11
factors you've mentioned (in that order) I'd add a
4th one: perhaps
Post by suwag11
RD should have worked more or earlier or both with
singers such as
Post by suwag11
Sanu, Udit Narayan and Alka G. He persisted for
too long with
Post by suwag11
Yesterday's men' like Shailendra Singh, Suresh
Wadkar etc. IMO.
Post by suwag11
If I have to select one factor, though, it will
have to be the
first
Post by suwag11
one from your list. Till about 1985 RD had at
least one hit every
Post by suwag11
year to counterbalance the flops. That equation
changed from 1986
Post by suwag11
onwards; all the films flopped. I had read a silly
article in a
Hindi
Post by suwag11
Magazine (I think it was Mayapuri, which I used to
browse through,
Post by suwag11
just to see whether there was anything on
RD:))which claimed that
RD
Post by suwag11
was jinxed. There were some other articles in
other film magazines
(I
Post by suwag11
don't remember the details) which said that RD was
out of sync with
Post by suwag11
the tastes of the new generation. Don't know how
prevalent such
views
Post by suwag11
were in the industry at the time.
This is semantics, I suppose, but I'd use the
phrase 'bad phase'
Post by suwag11
rather than 'downfall'. In the late 80s and early
90s RD was
Post by suwag11
certainly down, but he wasn't completely 'out'.
Even in his low
phase
Post by suwag11
he had big banner films such as Dacait (Rahul
Rawel), Hifazat
(Prayag
Post by suwag11
Raj), Aag Se Khelenge (NN Sippy), Parinda (VVC),
Apne Apne, Chor Pe
Post by suwag11
Mor and Indrajeet (All Ramesh Bahal), Jurrat
(Rajendra Kumar) Tadap
Post by suwag11
(Sohanlal Kanwar), Rama O Rama (Mirza Brothers),
Joshilay (Sibte
Post by suwag11
Hasan Rizvi / Shekhar Kapoor)Dushman (Shakti
Samantha) etc. Then
Post by suwag11
there were some others such as Gulzar (Izaazat,
Libaas), Hrishikesh
Post by suwag11
Mukherji (Namumkeen) Rajesh Khanna (Jai Shiv
Shankar) and BR Ishara
Post by suwag11
(Janam Se Pehale) who worked with him during this
period. However
Post by suwag11
such was RD'luck (or bad luck) that except Parinda
all the films
Post by suwag11
either flopped or did not get released (at least
in Mumbai)(e.g.
Post by suwag11
Tadap, Libaas, Jai Shiv Shankar, Janam Se Pehale).
Namumkeen and
Post by suwag11
Izaazat, for example, flopped so badly that they
were removed from
Post by suwag11
the cinemas in two weeks. (Namumkeen, incidently,
was the last film
Post by suwag11
to be shown in Mumbai's famous Opera House Cinema
which shut down
for
Post by suwag11
good after that. It was also the last film in
which RD and
Hrishikesh
Post by suwag11
Mukherji worked together.)In the last couple of
years there were
Post by suwag11
other producers and directors like Ramgopal Varma
(Drohi),
Post by suwag11
Priyadarshan (Gardish), to name but two, who
worked with him.
Post by suwag11
Whether RD's music stopped selling because of bad
luck or because
it
Post by suwag11
wasn't good will be a matter of opinion, but it
was that that
brought
Post by suwag11
on the bad phase which lasted for 6-7 years. If
you look at the
Post by suwag11
career graphs of most MDs in HFM, you find that
they generally
peaked
Post by suwag11
in their 20s and 30s. Almost all of them showed
(at least
Post by suwag11
comemrcially) a downward curve by the time they
neared 50. The only
Post by suwag11
two exceptions I can think of are Jaikishan (of
S-J) and SD Burman.
Post by suwag11
Jaikishan died in his early 40s, so we would not
know how he would
Post by suwag11
have fared had he lived. (If I have to make a
guess, I'd say that
he
Post by suwag11
would have found the going tough. S-J's music in
the late sixties
was
Post by suwag11
becoming, IMO, shrill, repetitive, and
predictable.) SDB was
amazing.
Post by suwag11
He is the only one who not only gave popualr music
till the end, it
Post by suwag11
is also generally acknowledged that the quality
did not suffer. But
Post by suwag11
then SDB never concerned himself with the number
games and paced
his
Post by suwag11
output well. That's why, perhaps, he lasted for as
long as he did.
Post by suwag11
RD maanged to end his musical career on a high
note with 1942--ALS.
Post by suwag11
Since he died before the film was released we
shall not know
whether
Post by suwag11
he would have been able to regain his top spot. He
himself thought
Post by suwag11
that was unlikely. In an interview given a few
months before his
Post by suwag11
death he had said (I am quoting this from memory)
something like he
Post by suwag11
was different person from what he was in the
seventies, and,
Post by suwag11
accordingly, his music, too, was different from
that which he gave
Post by suwag11
then. he had gone on to say that he was hopeful
that he would
Post by suwag11
continue giving interesting music, but wasn't sure
whether whether
it
Post by suwag11
would become popular.
Ajay
=== message truncated ===





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K
2008-05-29 16:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was unable to
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough. Despite
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD for his
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't use RD
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in Chandan
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home production "Satyakam"
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the 70s, RD
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back to
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success of "Padosan".

Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash, taking RD
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti Samanta
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I believe
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal Mitra as
the original MD.

Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them brilliant
openings.

This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be overlooked
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as a
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would be the
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is unable
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy, takes
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other things.
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market himself
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where that's the
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the older
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie. He fit
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one finds
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy openings
with most of them. Wonder why?

Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to movies.
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for himself
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music albums.
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded to the
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to the
quality of his music.


Ketan


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shashirao
2008-05-30 04:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!

First some disclaimers:
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or make
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of the 60s
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.

Ok...here's my first nickel:
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with Teesri
Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For this he
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt Pancham
more than succeeded.

As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his harmonium to
Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing to all
producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready to
replace Shanker-Jaikishan.

SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were on
their way out - but long ways from extinction.

However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked with
Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over to
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.

Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.

2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi Kapoor -
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor did he
exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.

Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood continued
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till Nauker.

Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and Mohd
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2 fantastic
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for Bikramjeet
Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in Dillagi and
Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for Dharmendra.

Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby Deol/Karishma's debut
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its quite
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby made
his debut with BARSAAT.

3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan movie
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.

Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and MUJHE
JEENE DO.

Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as music
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.

However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for Nehle Pe
Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.

So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made inroads
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.

4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite amazing
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.

5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's famous spat
with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days attempting
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with Anurodh
and Chakravyuha.

Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big movies -
and took other composers for the smaller/experimental venture.

Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler, Barsaat Ki Ek
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash. Shyamal
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.

Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham losing
a big movie camp.

6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if Pancham
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant role in
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.

Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did! Pancham
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days including
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi Ranjan
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.

Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the final
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel Darshan. And
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.

Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO, etc. as
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways Sunjay
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no question
of camp loyalties.

Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s. Gone
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of the
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash Ghai
and Yash Chopra.

Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti Films, Bappi
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.

Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone were
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc. who
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners all
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary partnerships.

Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend to
agree.

In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in his
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with Bollywood's
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.

And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-film
music.

However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.

Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this consultant
will require overtime rates.

Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was unable to
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD for his
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't use RD
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the 70s, RD
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back to
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success of "Padosan".
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash, taking RD
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti Samanta
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal Mitra as
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them brilliant
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as a
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would be the
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where that's the
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the older
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie. He fit
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one finds
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy openings
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for himself
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded to the
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to the
quality of his music.
Ketan
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Dikshit Arya
2008-05-30 13:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Loin,

Am still not reconciled to your aborted visit to Cal. On top of
that you also agree that Pm was not a composer for the movies? Pm
was the only movie composer we have had. His difficulty stemmed from
the fact that songs are integrated into movies wholly differently.
Most of the composers today are merely tunesmiths without any regard
to the overall structure of the movie. There is tremendous
improvement in terms of production values and technicals yet the art
of narration of song or its integration escapes most of the makers.
Sanjay Leela Bhansali is perhaps the best exponent of song
picturisation today. Bhansali's best work is what he has done with
Pm's compositions in Parinda and 1942 ALS. That more than an
association with a star could have been a useful partnership had Pm
lived longer.

The argument that a failure to forment a partnership with a
successful star was the reason for Pm's decline does not stand
closer scrutiny.

Up until 1994 when Pm passed away, Anil Kapoor and Jackie Shroff
were amongst the top most stars . Aamir Khan though very
successful at that time did not command the stature that he does
today. Ditto for Salman Khan.
In the eighties when Mithun was numero uno his bigger budget movies
and even his home production Boxer went to Pm .


Now let us look at the two of the most successful composers of the
90s- Nadeem Shravan and Mr A R Rahman.

Nadeem Shravan made their mark with Ashiqui without any stars. Post
Ashiqui NS went on to make the stars bow to their clout. No
particular association with a star.

Mr A R Rahman has done well without any particular star association.
He had no difficulty in making Subhash Ghai wait and work as per his
rules. This at a time when Ghai was considered the last showman and
his movies were most sought after. Mr Rahman remains not aligned
to any of the top stars even though he is considered for the top
projects.



Is this a new phenomenon? Nope. O P Nayyar, C Ramchandra two
composers who when they were at the top succeeded without any
lasting association with a particular star.

Not all stars can gurantee an initial. Those who do no longer are so
music dependent these days. There is no SRK type of song or for that
matter an Amir kind of song. Everything is interchangeable. Shammi
Kapoor or for that matter Rajesh Khanna to a large extent thrived on
the appeal of their songs. Their persona was defined by their
songs.Nobody else could be conceived in those songs except them.
They more than others were aware of this fact and hence were
involved fully in the composition of their songs to perpetuate this
trend.

Mr Bachchan has been a part of many a hit song but his persona is
not defined by the songs in the way that Shammi Kapoor and Rajesh
Khanna were. The music directors all appear to be incidental to his
films without any specific association discernible.

Music since the eighties is no longer associated with the stars as
it was in the earlier times. Sure music remains a major factor for
the box office BUT it is seen independent of the stars.

Dikshit


.
Post by shashirao
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or make
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of the 60s
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with Teesri
Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For this he
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt Pancham
more than succeeded.
As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his harmonium to
Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing to all
producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready to
replace Shanker-Jaikishan.
SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were on
their way out - but long ways from extinction.
However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked with
Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over to
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.
Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.
2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi
Kapoor -
Post by shashirao
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor did he
exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.
Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood continued
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till
Nauker.
Post by shashirao
Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and Mohd
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2
fantastic
Post by shashirao
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for Bikramjeet
Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in Dillagi and
Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for
Dharmendra.
Post by shashirao
Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby Deol/Karishma's
debut
Post by shashirao
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its quite
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby made
his debut with BARSAAT.
3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan
movie
Post by shashirao
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.
Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and MUJHE
JEENE DO.
Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as music
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.
However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for Nehle Pe
Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.
So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made inroads
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.
4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite amazing
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.
5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's famous
spat
Post by shashirao
with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days
attempting
Post by shashirao
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with
Anurodh
Post by shashirao
and Chakravyuha.
Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big
movies -
Post by shashirao
and took other composers for the smaller/experimental venture.
Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler, Barsaat Ki Ek
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash. Shyamal
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.
Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham
losing
Post by shashirao
a big movie camp.
6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if
Pancham
Post by shashirao
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant role in
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.
Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did! Pancham
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days
including
Post by shashirao
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi
Ranjan
Post by shashirao
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.
Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the final
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel Darshan. And
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.
Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO, etc. as
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways Sunjay
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no
question
Post by shashirao
of camp loyalties.
Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s. Gone
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of the
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash Ghai
and Yash Chopra.
Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti Films,
Bappi
Post by shashirao
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.
Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone
were
Post by shashirao
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc. who
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners all
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary partnerships.
Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend to
agree.
In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in his
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with Bollywood's
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.
And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-film
music.
However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.
Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this
consultant
Post by shashirao
will require overtime rates.
Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was unable to
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD
for
Post by shashirao
his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't use
RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the 70s, RD
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back to
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success of "Padosan".
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash,
taking
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti
Samanta
Post by shashirao
Post by K
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal Mitra
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them
brilliant
Post by shashirao
Post by K
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as a
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would be
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where that's the
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the older
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie. He
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one
finds
Post by shashirao
Post by K
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy
openings
Post by shashirao
Post by K
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for himself
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded to
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to the
quality of his music.
Ketan
------------------------------------

-----------------------------
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Dhruva Chowdhury
2008-05-30 16:38:26 UTC
Permalink
Excellent analysis, Dikshit. However, I fully agree that "his spirit seems
to be of a person who creates music for himself first, movies second. He
might have been more successful as a composer in the western mold, coming
out with non-film music albums". But I also think that, in addition, RD was
the best composer for the movies. Who else could/would have integrated the
church bells in "zindagi ke safar" or the sound of "stones falling" in "o
meri soni"?

Dhruva
Post by Dikshit Arya
Loin,
Am still not reconciled to your aborted visit to Cal. On top of
that you also agree that Pm was not a composer for the movies? Pm
was the only movie composer we have had. His difficulty stemmed from
the fact that songs are integrated into movies wholly differently.
Most of the composers today are merely tunesmiths without any regard
to the overall structure of the movie. There is tremendous
improvement in terms of production values and technicals yet the art
of narration of song or its integration escapes most of the makers.
Sanjay Leela Bhansali is perhaps the best exponent of song
picturisation today. Bhansali's best work is what he has done with
Pm's compositions in Parinda and 1942 ALS. That more than an
association with a star could have been a useful partnership had Pm
lived longer.
The argument that a failure to forment a partnership with a
successful star was the reason for Pm's decline does not stand
closer scrutiny.
Up until 1994 when Pm passed away, Anil Kapoor and Jackie Shroff
were amongst the top most stars . Aamir Khan though very
successful at that time did not command the stature that he does
today. Ditto for Salman Khan.
In the eighties when Mithun was numero uno his bigger budget movies
and even his home production Boxer went to Pm .
Now let us look at the two of the most successful composers of the
90s- Nadeem Shravan and Mr A R Rahman.
Nadeem Shravan made their mark with Ashiqui without any stars. Post
Ashiqui NS went on to make the stars bow to their clout. No
particular association with a star.
Mr A R Rahman has done well without any particular star association.
He had no difficulty in making Subhash Ghai wait and work as per his
rules. This at a time when Ghai was considered the last showman and
his movies were most sought after. Mr Rahman remains not aligned
to any of the top stars even though he is considered for the top
projects.
Is this a new phenomenon? Nope. O P Nayyar, C Ramchandra two
composers who when they were at the top succeeded without any
lasting association with a particular star.
Not all stars can gurantee an initial. Those who do no longer are so
music dependent these days. There is no SRK type of song or for that
matter an Amir kind of song. Everything is interchangeable. Shammi
Kapoor or for that matter Rajesh Khanna to a large extent thrived on
the appeal of their songs. Their persona was defined by their
songs.Nobody else could be conceived in those songs except them.
They more than others were aware of this fact and hence were
involved fully in the composition of their songs to perpetuate this
trend.
Mr Bachchan has been a part of many a hit song but his persona is
not defined by the songs in the way that Shammi Kapoor and Rajesh
Khanna were. The music directors all appear to be incidental to his
films without any specific association discernible.
Music since the eighties is no longer associated with the stars as
it was in the earlier times. Sure music remains a major factor for
the box office BUT it is seen independent of the stars.
Dikshit
.
Post by shashirao
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or
make
Post by shashirao
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of the
60s
Post by shashirao
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with Teesri
Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For this
he
Post by shashirao
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt Pancham
more than succeeded.
As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his harmonium
to
Post by shashirao
Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing to
all
Post by shashirao
producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready to
replace Shanker-Jaikishan.
SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were on
their way out - but long ways from extinction.
However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked with
Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over to
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.
Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.
2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi
Kapoor -
Post by shashirao
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor did
he
Post by shashirao
exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.
Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood continued
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till
Nauker.
Post by shashirao
Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and Mohd
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2
fantastic
Post by shashirao
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for Bikramjeet
Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in Dillagi and
Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for
Dharmendra.
Post by shashirao
Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby Deol/Karishma's
debut
Post by shashirao
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its quite
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby
made
Post by shashirao
his debut with BARSAAT.
3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan
movie
Post by shashirao
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.
Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and MUJHE
JEENE DO.
Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as music
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.
However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for Nehle Pe
Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.
So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made inroads
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.
4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite amazing
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.
5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's famous
spat
Post by shashirao
with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days
attempting
Post by shashirao
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with
Anurodh
Post by shashirao
and Chakravyuha.
Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big
movies -
Post by shashirao
and took other composers for the smaller/experimental venture.
Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler, Barsaat Ki
Ek
Post by shashirao
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash. Shyamal
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.
Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham
losing
Post by shashirao
a big movie camp.
6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if
Pancham
Post by shashirao
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant role
in
Post by shashirao
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.
Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did! Pancham
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days
including
Post by shashirao
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi
Ranjan
Post by shashirao
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.
Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the final
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel Darshan.
And
Post by shashirao
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.
Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO, etc.
as
Post by shashirao
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways Sunjay
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no
question
Post by shashirao
of camp loyalties.
Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s. Gone
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of the
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash Ghai
and Yash Chopra.
Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti Films,
Bappi
Post by shashirao
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.
Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone
were
Post by shashirao
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc. who
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners all
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary partnerships.
Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend to
agree.
In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in his
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with Bollywood's
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.
And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-film
music.
However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.
Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this
consultant
Post by shashirao
will require overtime rates.
Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was unable
to
Post by shashirao
Post by K
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD
for
Post by shashirao
his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't use
RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the 70s,
RD
Post by shashirao
Post by K
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back to
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success of "Padosan".
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash,
taking
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti
Samanta
Post by shashirao
Post by K
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal Mitra
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them
brilliant
Post by shashirao
Post by K
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as a
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would be
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where that's
the
Post by shashirao
Post by K
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the older
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie. He
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one
finds
Post by shashirao
Post by K
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy
openings
Post by shashirao
Post by K
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for himself
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded to
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to the
quality of his music.
Ketan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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shashirao
2008-05-30 17:15:07 UTC
Permalink
LOL - even I am not reconciled with my short trip to India - and the
missed visit to Calcutta despite Nilangshu's tempting offer :)
Anyways...it seems there will be another trip in about 3 months.

Back to the discussion - I could not agree more with your
observations on music of the 80s. In fact I would carry this further
to observe that music-making in the 90s went away from stars and
movie banners to music companies. From the 90s we see the trend
where music is composed and stored in banks owned by music
companies. Rarely does it matter what song fits in which movie and
what situation. Mahesh Bhatt and T-Series movies are the
glaring/glowing examples.

And coming back to the statement of "Pancham was not a composer for
the movies" - I don't think I ever ventured to make such a radical
and untrue observation.

To my knowledge, Pancham has voiced his desire to make music without
restrictions. He has shown inclinations towards composing private
albums in the 90s. However these instances DO NOT point to any
shortcoming or mismatch on Pancham's music composing capabilities
for Hindi movies.

Like it not - Pancham remained one of the rare Hindi film composer
who made complete soundtracks. He was perhaps one of the rare
composers who could compose a musical.

In fact in my conversation with Pete Gavankar - the very first thing
he mentioned about Pancham as a person was that - he was a visual
composer. He needed a movie situation to compose. If one did not
exist - he would create his own.

Pete mentioned Pancham's imagined movie scenario in composing the
title track - complete with the hero on a white horse chasing demons
thru the forest and encountering the 'Panther' and roaring in its
face.

It is also a well known fact that Pancham provided 200% more than
what the movie director imagined or demanded. Hence we have B and C
grade movies with such brilliant scores. We have tons of Pancham
songs pathetically butchered on screen - simply due to lack of
imagination on the director's part.

We have instances of director using stock shots for interludes which
cried out for more creative treatment. We have directors using
Pancham's seductive numbers for the title credits.

Matter of fact of the Pancham fans prefer to "hear" Pancham songs -
rather than "watch" it. There are many instances where as a
listener - one imagines wonderful scenarios thanks to Pancham's
music - only to be disappointed/shocked/rendered speechless by the
director's execution.

Allright I think I am done justifying :)

Now on to discussing what you and Shireesh mentioned about Pancham's
music in the 90s and his "supposed" decline.

I have already mentioned Sunny Deol, Kumar Gaurav and Sunjay Dutt
and their association with Pancham till the end of his life.

Besides them the reigning stars of the 90s included Jackie Shroff,
Anil Kapoor and Govinda (yes him!). And then we had the old guard
hanging around like over-ripe jackfruits - Dharmendra, Shatrughan,
Mithun, Rishi Kapoor, Vinod Khanna and Jeetendra - who lived with
the forumla: one hit + 20 flops = 20 more films + 2 years extended
career.

The young turks Salman, Aamir were the surprise element - a huge hit
followed by a bevy of lacklustre movies. I would agree with Dikshit -
one can hardly call them stars who dictated or depended on music to
create their image.

Even today I am not sure if Aamir is associated with Rehman or SEL?
And Salman has hits with Annu, Himesh, Sajid-Wajid.

To further complicate matters - it hardly matters for me if one
takes a Kal Ho Na Ho song (Its the time to Disco) and places that in
Dil Chahta Hai. Or if 'Agar Main Kahoon' is picturised on Aamir
Khan - while 'Jaane Kyon Log Pyar' is lip-synched by Hritik Roshan.

In fact one can observe the decline of music as a star-specific,
banner-specific phenomenon by observing the career of Amitabh
Bachchan.

Sure - Pancham, LP and KA provided their best for Bachchan - and KK
was one of his best playback singer. However with the advent of the
revenge masala movies - songs hardly mattered in these movies. Gone
were the days when songs were picturised aesthetically or to
elborate the storyline or build characters.

In the 90s songs became an "item" element - a means for music
companies to make a quick buck. Something to give a great initial to
the movie. Of course there were some very rare exceptions.

Bachchan moved away from KK, LP, Pancham towards Shabbir, Annu, etc.
It hardly made a difference to his "star" appeal. In today's world
it hardly matters if Bachchan doesn't have a song in FAMILY/KHAKHEE
or if he breaks into a jig with 'Soni Soni - Mahi Mahee'. I have
stopped caring who provides his playback voice - Sudesh, himself,
Aadesh, Bappi!

Music became an industry by themselves with the advent of T-Series
and Venus. We have more songs churned as remixes, reissues, private
albums, DJ mixes and shraddhanjali's than original soundtrack.

So what does all this have to do with Pancham eh! Lemme see:

Bottom line - Pancham still composed for the leading actors and
directors in the 90s. However the golden days of old - where banners
and superstars reigned was over.

I would agree - that Pancham did not form any partnerships with the
new turks including Aamir, Salman, etc. However on hindsight - it
was simply a matter of time.

Aamir - inspite of a hit musical debut - oscillitated from Anand
Milind to Bappi Lahiri to Annu Mallick to Nadeem Shravan - would
have eventually worked with Pancham. However had Pancham lived into
the 90s and 20th century - I don't forsee him forging the Kaka-
Bakshi-Samanta partnership with a Aamir-Sameer-Mansoor or Salman-
Indivar-Sajid Nadiadwala.

Post 1942 Pancham surely would have signed up 5-8 movies. I mean if
Govinda can sign 20 movies after 1 hit (preceded with 15 flops) - am
sure Pancham could've got at least 5.

Would he have succeeded for another 5 years - most possible. Another
10 years - dunno - crystal ball very cloudy - need to revisit the
dollar store.

But I don't think Pancham failed because he did not forge relations
with newer actors. I think Pancham was in the process of shifting
gears when he ran his life's red light.

I guess there's only 2 ways for a music composer to end his career:
1. Call it quits - retire with "grace" - call his/her era as the
golden period - deem anything after that as cultural rape - and be
felicitated occasionally in some award function on the lookout for a
recipient for their lifetime achievment award.
2. Abrupt end to life - leave your fans wondering if he/she left on
a high or low note - what if he/she lived today and composed with
Sonu Nigam and electronic gadgets - how lack of recognition,
alcohol, etc. drove the person to doom/gloom.

Oh wait..there is that 3rd way:
3. Never call it quits - buy tons of jewellery - keep promising a
comeback - attend and host any and every ridiculous show on TV -
sing for other "hit" composers - still sing/talk about that 1 hit
you gave decades ago - talk about the good old days to expound one's
seniority

Ok...I digress and ramble - on to some work now.
Loin
Post by Dikshit Arya
Loin,
Am still not reconciled to your aborted visit to Cal. On top of
that you also agree that Pm was not a composer for the movies? Pm
was the only movie composer we have had. His difficulty stemmed from
the fact that songs are integrated into movies wholly differently.
Most of the composers today are merely tunesmiths without any
regard
Post by Dikshit Arya
to the overall structure of the movie. There is tremendous
improvement in terms of production values and technicals yet the art
of narration of song or its integration escapes most of the
makers.
Post by Dikshit Arya
Sanjay Leela Bhansali is perhaps the best exponent of song
picturisation today. Bhansali's best work is what he has done with
Pm's compositions in Parinda and 1942 ALS. That more than an
association with a star could have been a useful partnership had Pm
lived longer.
The argument that a failure to forment a partnership with a
successful star was the reason for Pm's decline does not stand
closer scrutiny.
Up until 1994 when Pm passed away, Anil Kapoor and Jackie Shroff
were amongst the top most stars . Aamir Khan though very
successful at that time did not command the stature that he does
today. Ditto for Salman Khan.
In the eighties when Mithun was numero uno his bigger budget
movies
Post by Dikshit Arya
and even his home production Boxer went to Pm .
Now let us look at the two of the most successful composers of the
90s- Nadeem Shravan and Mr A R Rahman.
Nadeem Shravan made their mark with Ashiqui without any stars.
Post
Post by Dikshit Arya
Ashiqui NS went on to make the stars bow to their clout. No
particular association with a star.
Mr A R Rahman has done well without any particular star
association.
Post by Dikshit Arya
He had no difficulty in making Subhash Ghai wait and work as per his
rules. This at a time when Ghai was considered the last showman and
his movies were most sought after. Mr Rahman remains not aligned
to any of the top stars even though he is considered for the top
projects.
Is this a new phenomenon? Nope. O P Nayyar, C Ramchandra two
composers who when they were at the top succeeded without any
lasting association with a particular star.
Not all stars can gurantee an initial. Those who do no longer are so
music dependent these days. There is no SRK type of song or for that
matter an Amir kind of song. Everything is interchangeable. Shammi
Kapoor or for that matter Rajesh Khanna to a large extent thrived on
the appeal of their songs. Their persona was defined by their
songs.Nobody else could be conceived in those songs except them.
They more than others were aware of this fact and hence were
involved fully in the composition of their songs to perpetuate
this
Post by Dikshit Arya
trend.
Mr Bachchan has been a part of many a hit song but his persona is
not defined by the songs in the way that Shammi Kapoor and Rajesh
Khanna were. The music directors all appear to be incidental to his
films without any specific association discernible.
Music since the eighties is no longer associated with the stars as
it was in the earlier times. Sure music remains a major factor for
the box office BUT it is seen independent of the stars.
Dikshit
.
Post by shashirao
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or
make
Post by shashirao
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of the
60s
Post by shashirao
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with Teesri
Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For
this
Post by Dikshit Arya
he
Post by shashirao
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt Pancham
more than succeeded.
As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his
harmonium
Post by Dikshit Arya
to
Post by shashirao
Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing to
all
Post by shashirao
producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready to
replace Shanker-Jaikishan.
SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were on
their way out - but long ways from extinction.
However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked with
Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over to
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.
Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.
2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi
Kapoor -
Post by shashirao
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor
did
Post by Dikshit Arya
he
Post by shashirao
exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.
Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood
continued
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till
Nauker.
Post by shashirao
Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and
Mohd
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2
fantastic
Post by shashirao
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for
Bikramjeet
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in Dillagi and
Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for
Dharmendra.
Post by shashirao
Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby Deol/Karishma's
debut
Post by shashirao
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its quite
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby
made
Post by shashirao
his debut with BARSAAT.
3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan
movie
Post by shashirao
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.
Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and MUJHE
JEENE DO.
Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as music
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.
However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for Nehle Pe
Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.
So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made
inroads
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.
4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite
amazing
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.
5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's famous
spat
Post by shashirao
with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days
attempting
Post by shashirao
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with
Anurodh
Post by shashirao
and Chakravyuha.
Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big
movies -
Post by shashirao
and took other composers for the smaller/experimental venture.
Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler, Barsaat
Ki
Post by Dikshit Arya
Ek
Post by shashirao
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash.
Shyamal
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.
Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham
losing
Post by shashirao
a big movie camp.
6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if
Pancham
Post by shashirao
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant role
in
Post by shashirao
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.
Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did! Pancham
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days
including
Post by shashirao
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi
Ranjan
Post by shashirao
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.
Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the final
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel Darshan.
And
Post by shashirao
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.
Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO,
etc.
Post by Dikshit Arya
as
Post by shashirao
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways
Sunjay
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no
question
Post by shashirao
of camp loyalties.
Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s. Gone
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of the
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash
Ghai
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
and Yash Chopra.
Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti Films,
Bappi
Post by shashirao
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.
Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone
were
Post by shashirao
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc. who
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners all
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary
partnerships.
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend to
agree.
In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in his
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with
Bollywood's
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.
And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-
film
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
music.
However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.
Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this
consultant
Post by shashirao
will require overtime rates.
Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was
unable
Post by Dikshit Arya
to
Post by shashirao
Post by K
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD
for
Post by shashirao
his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't use
RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the
70s,
Post by Dikshit Arya
RD
Post by shashirao
Post by K
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back to
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success
of "Padosan".
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash,
taking
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti
Samanta
Post by shashirao
Post by K
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal
Mitra
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them
brilliant
Post by shashirao
Post by K
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as a
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would be
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where that's
the
Post by shashirao
Post by K
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the
older
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
Post by K
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie. He
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one
finds
Post by shashirao
Post by K
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy
openings
Post by shashirao
Post by K
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for
himself
Post by Dikshit Arya
Post by shashirao
Post by K
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded to
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to the
quality of his music.
Ketan
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Kaustubh Pingle
2008-05-31 05:53:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by shashirao
Music became an industry by themselves with the advent of T-Series
and Venus.
CORRECT. This, according to me is hit Pancham and other creative people in
the industry, the hardest. Everybody around him, thought of business. Nobody
cared about each other. Everybody was to loot each other or make fast bucks
by any means. The scene is very bad today and in future it will be worse. It
would not be far, when naked gals and guys will dance to promote music and
thus the films !! Kuchh bhi ho sakta hai yahaan is "industry" mein.

kcp


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shashirao
2008-05-31 09:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Albert Pinto Ko Gussa Kyon Aata Hai?

I am visualizing KCP screaming <with a cross in hand>"Mere Andar Ke
Janwar Ko Matt Jagao Ineespectorrrr!"

Commercialization definitely sounded the death knell for creative
music composing in a team environment. The emphasis shifted to
instant gratification with no patience or concern for long-lasting
quality. (Wow I sound ancient enough to join RMIM or such group to
wail 'Jaane Kahan Gaye Woh Din'!)

I am sure if someone at a music company found out that there is a
market for remixed Hindi songs in Japan - we would have interesting
variations of Amar Prem in Nihongo. Oh wait a sec - they're already
dubbing Rajnikant movies in Japanese.

Pancham definitely was out of place in the overtly commercial
environment of the 90s. Composing music with friends - for friends
in familiar surroundings had become a rarity. And now we hardly have
compositions made with real musicians and acoustic instruments.

Anyhow - music has survived - despite the dancing girls. We do have
instances of creative work but hardly the same level of dynamism
found in the 60s and 70s.

Sigh!
Loin
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by shashirao
Music became an industry by themselves with the advent of T-
Series
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by shashirao
and Venus.
CORRECT. This, according to me is hit Pancham and other creative people in
the industry, the hardest. Everybody around him, thought of
business. Nobody
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
cared about each other. Everybody was to loot each other or make fast bucks
by any means. The scene is very bad today and in future it will be worse. It
would not be far, when naked gals and guys will dance to promote music and
thus the films !! Kuchh bhi ho sakta hai yahaan is "industry" mein.
kcp
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drram6557
2008-05-31 14:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Shashi et al,

Hmmmm. Quite a bit of posting on the "downfall".

However, in my humble opinion, I really do not see RD falling down
ever. It was just a perception that Rd had a downfall.

All that perception should now be put to rest after all his old
numbers being remixed like mad,( mostly murdered! IMHO) and after 1942
ALS's success.

True,the melody of RDB is lost somewhere. Today's music is mundane and
predictable. Rd never was predictable. Every tune of his was superbly
created....Isn't that what composition of music is all about? CREATION.

Having said that, I would like to know if the latest RDxclusive MP3 cd
was released in the US or not? I was not able to procure it in Mumbai.

Shashi, I seldom post but always read your vivid narrative intently.

I am glad we have such passionate folks in this forum.

Regards,
Ram
Post by shashirao
Albert Pinto Ko Gussa Kyon Aata Hai?
I am visualizing KCP screaming <with a cross in hand>"Mere Andar Ke
Janwar Ko Matt Jagao Ineespectorrrr!"
Commercialization definitely sounded the death knell for creative
music composing in a team environment. The emphasis shifted to
instant gratification with no patience or concern for long-lasting
quality. (Wow I sound ancient enough to join RMIM or such group to
wail 'Jaane Kahan Gaye Woh Din'!)
I am sure if someone at a music company found out that there is a
market for remixed Hindi songs in Japan - we would have interesting
variations of Amar Prem in Nihongo. Oh wait a sec - they're already
dubbing Rajnikant movies in Japanese.
Pancham definitely was out of place in the overtly commercial
environment of the 90s. Composing music with friends - for friends
in familiar surroundings had become a rarity. And now we hardly have
compositions made with real musicians and acoustic instruments.
Anyhow - music has survived - despite the dancing girls. We do have
instances of creative work but hardly the same level of dynamism
found in the 60s and 70s.
Sigh!
Loin
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by shashirao
Music became an industry by themselves with the advent of T-
Series
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by shashirao
and Venus.
CORRECT. This, according to me is hit Pancham and other creative
people in
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
the industry, the hardest. Everybody around him, thought of
business. Nobody
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
cared about each other. Everybody was to loot each other or make
fast bucks
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
by any means. The scene is very bad today and in future it will be
worse. It
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
would not be far, when naked gals and guys will dance to promote
music and
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
thus the films !! Kuchh bhi ho sakta hai yahaan is "industry" mein.
kcp
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Kaustubh Pingle
2008-05-31 05:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dikshit Arya
Sanjay Leela Bhansali is perhaps the best exponent of song
picturisation today. Bhansali's best work is what he has done with
Pm's compositions in Parinda and 1942 ALS. That more than an
association with a star could have been a useful partnership had Pm
lived longer.
You meant Vidhu Vinod Chopda ?

kcp


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Dikshit Arya
2008-05-31 06:42:40 UTC
Permalink
-
Hi Kaustubh,

I did mean Bhansali. Vinod Chopra's songs till 1942ALS were directed
by Bhansali.

regards,

Dikshit
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by Dikshit Arya
Sanjay Leela Bhansali is perhaps the best exponent of song
picturisation today. Bhansali's best work is what he has done with
Pm's compositions in Parinda and 1942 ALS. That more than an
association with a star could have been a useful partnership had Pm
lived longer.
You meant Vidhu Vinod Chopda ?
kcp
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Kaustubh Pingle
2008-05-31 06:43:47 UTC
Permalink
ok thanks for the clarification !!
Post by Dikshit Arya
-
Hi Kaustubh,
I did mean Bhansali. Vinod Chopra's songs till 1942ALS were directed
by Bhansali.
regards,
Dikshit
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by Dikshit Arya
Sanjay Leela Bhansali is perhaps the best exponent of song
picturisation today. Bhansali's best work is what he has done
with
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by Dikshit Arya
Pm's compositions in Parinda and 1942 ALS. That more than an
association with a star could have been a useful partnership had
Pm
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by Dikshit Arya
lived longer.
You meant Vidhu Vinod Chopda ?
kcp
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
http://www.brahmanandsingh.com/RDB.htm


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Kaustubh Pingle
2008-05-31 05:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dikshit Arya
Mr A R Rahman has done well without any particular star association.
Was wondering - total how many Hindi movies-music did A R Rehman make, in
the 90's, to consider him as one of the leading man ?

kcp


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Dikshit Arya
2008-05-31 06:59:02 UTC
Permalink
-
Kaustubh,

Beginning with Roja in 1992 followed by Bombay and Rangeela in 1995
catapaulted him to the very top. His successes down south in
Gentleman, Kadhalan , Thiruda Thiruda coupled with extreme selectivity
in Hindi films only enhanced his market value to make him the highest
paid composer who worked at his own pace on his own terms. SDB would
approve.

Dikshit
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by Dikshit Arya
Mr A R Rahman has done well without any particular star
association.
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Was wondering - total how many Hindi movies-music did A R Rehman make, in
the 90's, to consider him as one of the leading man ?
kcp
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Kaustubh Pingle
2008-05-31 07:19:27 UTC
Permalink
according to me in the 90's advertisement of songs on TV channels, casettes,
CDs, etc gave ARR a tremendous advantage ( Roja, Rangeela, Tu Hi Re,
Muqaabla Ho Laila etc )....otherwise If I was a producer of a movie I would
never hire ARR for this limited output ( I agree that sonme of his songs
till mid 90's Hindi films were very good like Dil Hai Chhota Sa and
Rangeela-songs ). Late 90's is pure hype by the "industry" of ARR...and it
still continues.

all IMHO - nothing to do with being a RDB fan etc etc.

kcp
Post by sourav mazumder
-
Kaustubh,
Beginning with Roja in 1992 followed by Bombay and Rangeela in 1995
catapaulted him to the very top. His successes down south in
Gentleman, Kadhalan , Thiruda Thiruda coupled with extreme selectivity
in Hindi films only enhanced his market value to make him the highest
paid composer who worked at his own pace on his own terms. SDB would
approve.
Dikshit
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by Dikshit Arya
Mr A R Rahman has done well without any particular star
association.
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Was wondering - total how many Hindi movies-music did A R Rehman
make, in
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
the 90's, to consider him as one of the leading man ?
kcp
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
http://www.brahmanandsingh.com/RDB.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Dikshit Arya
2008-05-31 10:15:51 UTC
Permalink
I agree with what you say. Give him time the hype will fade away. It
must be said in his defence though that he has not engineered this
hype.

If you were a producer you would hire Mr Rahman because he would
enhance your market value!! Maybe if you were a film maker you
would choose someone else.

Coming to Pm, the lesson here is that pacing your self can help your
career like no amount of politicking, star association etc can.A
hit will come your way. What you do and how you do after that
determines your position in the game. What we call managing the
course in Golf.

Dikshit
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
according to me in the 90's advertisement of songs on TV channels, casettes,
CDs, etc gave ARR a tremendous advantage ( Roja, Rangeela, Tu Hi Re,
Muqaabla Ho Laila etc )....otherwise If I was a producer of a
movie I would
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
never hire ARR for this limited output ( I agree that sonme of his songs
till mid 90's Hindi films were very good like Dil Hai Chhota Sa and
Rangeela-songs ). Late 90's is pure hype by the "industry" of
ARR...and it
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
still continues.
all IMHO - nothing to do with being a RDB fan etc etc.
kcp
Post by sourav mazumder
-
Kaustubh,
Beginning with Roja in 1992 followed by Bombay and Rangeela in 1995
catapaulted him to the very top. His successes down south in
Gentleman, Kadhalan , Thiruda Thiruda coupled with extreme
selectivity
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by sourav mazumder
in Hindi films only enhanced his market value to make him the highest
paid composer who worked at his own pace on his own terms. SDB would
approve.
Dikshit
40yahoogroups.com>, "Kaustubh
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by sourav mazumder
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by Dikshit Arya
Mr A R Rahman has done well without any particular star
association.
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Was wondering - total how many Hindi movies-music did A R
Rehman
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
Post by sourav mazumder
make, in
Post by Kaustubh Pingle
the 90's, to consider him as one of the leading man ?
kcp
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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http://www.brahmanandsingh.com/RDB.htm
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Ali Rashid
2008-05-31 01:20:16 UTC
Permalink
Shashi-bhai,

Well said, I agree with most of your analysis (as well as what others
have written), but I don't think SJ were on their way out around the
time of Teesri Manzil. They were as prolific as ever, and they
followed up Pancham's TM score with "An Evening In Paris" the
following year.

With the great strides LP were making in the late sixties, as well as
Pancham's big bang with TM (and his follow-up albums), SJ still
remained excellent and very prolific right up until Jai's death in
71. Most of SJ's banners went to Pancham after Jai's passing away,
and it was only fitting, from two genius composers to another genius
composer. SJ had around 35 odd productions lined up around 1971 (from
what I have read), and had Jai lived, in my view they would have
still continued to be great and prolific.

I wish Pancham lived to see his 1942 ALS success. He had it in him to
compose for any decade of music. He would have surely brought back
melody to music in a unique way. As Naushad said:

"A creative and a versatile genius who had lots of music left in him
to again transform moribund music scenario of today's and I believe
only he could given a new direction to hindi film music died
suddenly...and a flower wilted before its full blossom."

I think Rajesh Roshan is now the only composer who can bring back the
melody days. However I have no idea what has happened to his overall
music, its no where close to what he composed before.

Regards

Ali
Post by shashirao
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or make
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of the 60s
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with Teesri
Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For this he
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt Pancham
more than succeeded.
As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his harmonium to
Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing to all
producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready to
replace Shanker-Jaikishan.
SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were on
their way out - but long ways from extinction.
However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked with
Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over to
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.
Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.
2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi Kapoor -
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor did he
exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.
Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood continued
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till
Nauker.
Post by shashirao
Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and Mohd
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2 fantastic
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for Bikramjeet
Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in Dillagi and
Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for
Dharmendra.
Post by shashirao
Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby Deol/Karishma's
debut
Post by shashirao
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its quite
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby made
his debut with BARSAAT.
3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan movie
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.
Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and MUJHE
JEENE DO.
Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as music
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.
However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for Nehle Pe
Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.
So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made inroads
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.
4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite amazing
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.
5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's famous spat
with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days
attempting
Post by shashirao
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with Anurodh
and Chakravyuha.
Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big
movies -
Post by shashirao
and took other composers for the smaller/experimental venture.
Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler, Barsaat Ki Ek
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash. Shyamal
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.
Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham losing
a big movie camp.
6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if Pancham
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant role in
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.
Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did! Pancham
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days
including
Post by shashirao
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi
Ranjan
Post by shashirao
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.
Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the final
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel Darshan. And
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.
Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO, etc. as
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways Sunjay
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no question
of camp loyalties.
Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s. Gone
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of the
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash Ghai
and Yash Chopra.
Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti Films,
Bappi
Post by shashirao
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.
Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone were
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc. who
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners all
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary partnerships.
Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend to
agree.
In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in his
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with Bollywood's
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.
And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-film
music.
However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.
Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this
consultant
Post by shashirao
will require overtime rates.
Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was unable to
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD for
his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't use
RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the 70s, RD
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back to
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success of "Padosan".
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash,
taking
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti Samanta
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal Mitra
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them
brilliant
Post by shashirao
Post by K
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as a
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would be
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where that's the
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the older
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie. He
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one
finds
Post by shashirao
Post by K
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy openings
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for himself
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded to
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to the
quality of his music.
Ketan
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shashirao
2008-05-31 04:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Ok - I'll risk a minor digression here to respond to the SJ comment.

An Evening In Paris, Budtameez, LattSaheb, Brahmachari, Prince, etc.
were most definitely resounding hits both in terms of movie and its
music.

However they can nowhere be compared to SJ's earlier successes or
creativity. The compositions were getting repeatative, the typical
usage of the large orchrestra, not many experimentations that they
were known for.

It almost seemed as if they were responding to rather than leading
the musical brigade. Hence my observation that they were on the
decline. They never returned to their glory days in terms of their
wow factor - associated with their creativity, their range and
complexity.

LP their most loyal followers ended in similar fashion - where
barring a few Chalbaaz and Rajkumar - most of their final output
ended in repeatative cacophony. Almost as if they had lost interest
in composing.

Pancham on the other had was different - because one can blindly
hate his 90s music and ignorantly write off those compositions as
blah. But the truth of the matter is - Pancham never got stuck in a
rut - sounding repeatative or jaded. In fact his 90s compositions
got more complex with liberal doses of sheer music. Some even blame
him for losing sight of melody - in favor of music and rhythm.

But I dare anyone to give me an interlude or a song pattern that has
been repeated by Pancham. He may have used the same tune multiple
times - for instance 'Jaane Do Mujhe Jaane Do' for DPH and Yaar Meri
Zindagi - but each song was treated different - refreshingly.

Even when his movies did not succeed - his music never got
predictable. Hence we have a Jeeva, Jeene Do or Sarphira - all
Sunjay Dutt flops - but with amazing range and astounding
compositions - something that people are still discovering and
unearthing today.

His music for any banner - be it Nasir Hussain, Brij, Shakti
Samanta, Sohanlal Kanwar - never got repeatative. This is unlike
what they were used to. Not to rake any controversies - but SJ had
got comfortable providing a predictable style for Sohanlal Kanwar,
Bappi Sonie or FC Mehra. Kalyanji-Anandji started sounding
repeatative for Brij. Bappi - let's not go there. LP - I guess it
didn't matter what banner - they sounded very uninspired in their
final days.

Rajesh Roshan - hmm - I can perhaps give him a backhanded
compliment - he's done a fabulous job in surviving the rat race. We
no longer hear songs from him in his inimitable style of the 80s. I
was even amazed when I heard some of the songs he made for
the "Khiladi" series or Yugpurush, Keemat, etc. Was this the same
Rajesh Roshan? So if we can compliment him for surviving - sure! But
bring back melody - we'd better off depending on Boppi-da for that :)

As for Pancham bringing back melody with 1942 - it is amazing when
Pancham was producing melody - no one noticed!

For instance - today I was listening to the Bangla version of 1942 -
the Rim Jhim Rim Jhim number - I was reminded of the beautiful
number from Dacait - Maine Kaha Tumne Suna - and the amazing heart-
stopping interlude music which signals the arrival of rain. What a
shameful waste!

I guess a melodious album like Yaar Mera Zindagi will be forever
relegated to the ignominy of being forgetable music for an
unreleased movie.

And who noticed melody in a Namumkin or a Siyasat number. Or the
soothing tunes of 'Koi Jhankaar' and 'Pareshan Ho' in Janam Se Pehle.

Sigh - maybe I am just outdated and jaded in my liking.

Ok...over to more new thoughts on reasons for the "downfall".
Loin
Post by Ali Rashid
Shashi-bhai,
Well said, I agree with most of your analysis (as well as what
others
Post by Ali Rashid
have written), but I don't think SJ were on their way out around the
time of Teesri Manzil. They were as prolific as ever, and they
followed up Pancham's TM score with "An Evening In Paris" the
following year.
With the great strides LP were making in the late sixties, as well as
Pancham's big bang with TM (and his follow-up albums), SJ still
remained excellent and very prolific right up until Jai's death in
71. Most of SJ's banners went to Pancham after Jai's passing away,
and it was only fitting, from two genius composers to another
genius
Post by Ali Rashid
composer. SJ had around 35 odd productions lined up around 1971 (from
what I have read), and had Jai lived, in my view they would have
still continued to be great and prolific.
I wish Pancham lived to see his 1942 ALS success. He had it in him to
compose for any decade of music. He would have surely brought back
"A creative and a versatile genius who had lots of music left in him
to again transform moribund music scenario of today's and I
believe
Post by Ali Rashid
only he could given a new direction to hindi film music died
suddenly...and a flower wilted before its full blossom."
I think Rajesh Roshan is now the only composer who can bring back the
melody days. However I have no idea what has happened to his
overall
Post by Ali Rashid
music, its no where close to what he composed before.
Regards
Ali
Post by shashirao
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or
make
Post by shashirao
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of the
60s
Post by shashirao
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with Teesri
Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For
this
Post by Ali Rashid
he
Post by shashirao
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt Pancham
more than succeeded.
As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his
harmonium
Post by Ali Rashid
to
Post by shashirao
Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing to
all
Post by shashirao
producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready to
replace Shanker-Jaikishan.
SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were on
their way out - but long ways from extinction.
However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked with
Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over to
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.
Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.
2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi
Kapoor -
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor
did
Post by Ali Rashid
he
Post by shashirao
exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.
Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood
continued
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till
Nauker.
Post by shashirao
Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and
Mohd
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2
fantastic
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for
Bikramjeet
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in Dillagi and
Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for
Dharmendra.
Post by shashirao
Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby Deol/Karishma's
debut
Post by shashirao
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its quite
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby
made
Post by shashirao
his debut with BARSAAT.
3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan movie
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.
Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and MUJHE
JEENE DO.
Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as music
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.
However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for Nehle Pe
Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.
So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made
inroads
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.
4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite
amazing
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.
5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's famous spat
with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days
attempting
Post by shashirao
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with
Anurodh
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
and Chakravyuha.
Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big
movies -
Post by shashirao
and took other composers for the smaller/experimental venture.
Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler, Barsaat
Ki
Post by Ali Rashid
Ek
Post by shashirao
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash.
Shyamal
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.
Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham
losing
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
a big movie camp.
6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if
Pancham
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant role in
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.
Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did! Pancham
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days
including
Post by shashirao
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi
Ranjan
Post by shashirao
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.
Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the final
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel Darshan.
And
Post by shashirao
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.
Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO,
etc.
Post by Ali Rashid
as
Post by shashirao
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways
Sunjay
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no
question
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
of camp loyalties.
Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s. Gone
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of the
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash
Ghai
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
and Yash Chopra.
Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti Films,
Bappi
Post by shashirao
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.
Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone were
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc. who
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners all
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary
partnerships.
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend to
agree.
In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in his
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with
Bollywood's
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.
And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-
film
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
music.
However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.
Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this
consultant
Post by shashirao
will require overtime rates.
Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was
unable
Post by Ali Rashid
to
Post by shashirao
Post by K
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD for
his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't use
RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the
70s,
Post by Ali Rashid
RD
Post by shashirao
Post by K
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back to
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success
of "Padosan".
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash,
taking
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti
Samanta
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal
Mitra
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them
brilliant
Post by shashirao
Post by K
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as a
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would be
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where that's
the
Post by shashirao
Post by K
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the
older
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie. He
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one
finds
Post by shashirao
Post by K
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy
openings
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for
himself
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded to
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to the
quality of his music.
Ketan
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Ali Rashid
2008-05-31 17:24:38 UTC
Permalink
I understand you completely, but how about SJ's music
in "Suraj", "Love In Tokyo", "Jhuk Gaya Aasman", "Mere Huzoor", "Mera
Naam Joker", "Diwana", "Kanyadaan", Aman", all wonderful scores,
hardly any repetitive factor there. I do agree their music at times
was getting repetitive (I think most composers at one time or another
become a little repetitive, not on purpose, but it just happens due
to various factors), but they still had a lot of great music. Their
music did suffer a little due to various other factors, but had Jai
lived it would have been great having SJ in the 70's. I think its a
matter of personal choice when it comes to discussing albums.

Indeed Pancham's music in the 90's has been written off, when he did
come up with great music. Pancham's compositions (like SJ, MM, SDB,
LP etc.) always had fantastic melody. No matter how much
experimentation he did, he belonged to the "old school" of composing,
which meant melody was a hallmark of his songs.

If one listens to RR compositions of today, and compares them to his
previous songs, you won't think its the same composer. I feel he has
also lost interest in composing, we hardly see anything new or
creative from this composer who like Pancham was known for being very
creative and experimenting, having melody, besides belonging to the
previous era. His "Na tum ja no na hum" (KNPH) was kind of a
throwback to the old RR, melody, rhythm, composition wise. He has
survived the rat race, and that's great.

I just read a recent article that mentioned in the 80's, Pancham
stuck too long to the likes of Lata, Asha on the female side, and
then Kishore, Suresh, Shailendra on the male side, and he should have
used newer voices like his contemporaries. But can you blame Pancham
for being comfortable with and wanting to use these voices ?. I don't
think these newer voices would have done justice to his songs. He did
switch to newer voices after, but I don't think he made a bad
decision at all, after all singers like Lata, Asha, Kishore are
legends, and the likes of Suresh, SPB etc. were great too. How I wish
Rafi was there, we could have seen more of a "Pal do pal ka saath
hamara" or "Maine poocha chand se" (two gems from their 80's output).
I'm not really a fan of Amit Kumar, but he sang the scores of Love
Story, Romance etc. all well, Pancham gave him some faboulous tunes.
Just wishful thinking here, but maybe these songs would have gone to
Rafi (Rajendra Kumar launching his son with his own voice), the songs
would have been much better (imo), then we have Betaab, with the Rafi
clone Shabbir K, and many other songs and albums, through all this
Pancham must have been missing Rafi.

Just listening to Kishore-Lata's "Kya yahi pyar hai" (Rocky), Sanjay
Dutt received excellent music fo his launch, absolutely delightful
song.

What are your thoughts ?

Regards

Ali
Post by shashirao
Ok - I'll risk a minor digression here to respond to the SJ comment.
An Evening In Paris, Budtameez, LattSaheb, Brahmachari, Prince, etc.
were most definitely resounding hits both in terms of movie and its
music.
However they can nowhere be compared to SJ's earlier successes or
creativity. The compositions were getting repeatative, the typical
usage of the large orchrestra, not many experimentations that they
were known for.
It almost seemed as if they were responding to rather than leading
the musical brigade. Hence my observation that they were on the
decline. They never returned to their glory days in terms of their
wow factor - associated with their creativity, their range and
complexity.
LP their most loyal followers ended in similar fashion - where
barring a few Chalbaaz and Rajkumar - most of their final output
ended in repeatative cacophony. Almost as if they had lost interest
in composing.
Pancham on the other had was different - because one can blindly
hate his 90s music and ignorantly write off those compositions as
blah. But the truth of the matter is - Pancham never got stuck in a
rut - sounding repeatative or jaded. In fact his 90s compositions
got more complex with liberal doses of sheer music. Some even blame
him for losing sight of melody - in favor of music and rhythm.
But I dare anyone to give me an interlude or a song pattern that has
been repeated by Pancham. He may have used the same tune multiple
times - for instance 'Jaane Do Mujhe Jaane Do' for DPH and Yaar Meri
Zindagi - but each song was treated different - refreshingly.
Even when his movies did not succeed - his music never got
predictable. Hence we have a Jeeva, Jeene Do or Sarphira - all
Sunjay Dutt flops - but with amazing range and astounding
compositions - something that people are still discovering and
unearthing today.
His music for any banner - be it Nasir Hussain, Brij, Shakti
Samanta, Sohanlal Kanwar - never got repeatative. This is unlike
what they were used to. Not to rake any controversies - but SJ had
got comfortable providing a predictable style for Sohanlal Kanwar,
Bappi Sonie or FC Mehra. Kalyanji-Anandji started sounding
repeatative for Brij. Bappi - let's not go there. LP - I guess it
didn't matter what banner - they sounded very uninspired in their
final days.
Rajesh Roshan - hmm - I can perhaps give him a backhanded
compliment - he's done a fabulous job in surviving the rat race. We
no longer hear songs from him in his inimitable style of the 80s. I
was even amazed when I heard some of the songs he made for
the "Khiladi" series or Yugpurush, Keemat, etc. Was this the same
Rajesh Roshan? So if we can compliment him for surviving - sure! But
bring back melody - we'd better off depending on Boppi-da for
that :)
Post by shashirao
As for Pancham bringing back melody with 1942 - it is amazing when
Pancham was producing melody - no one noticed!
For instance - today I was listening to the Bangla version of 1942 -
the Rim Jhim Rim Jhim number - I was reminded of the beautiful
number from Dacait - Maine Kaha Tumne Suna - and the amazing heart-
stopping interlude music which signals the arrival of rain. What a
shameful waste!
I guess a melodious album like Yaar Mera Zindagi will be forever
relegated to the ignominy of being forgetable music for an
unreleased movie.
And who noticed melody in a Namumkin or a Siyasat number. Or the
soothing tunes of 'Koi Jhankaar' and 'Pareshan Ho' in Janam Se
Pehle.
Post by shashirao
Sigh - maybe I am just outdated and jaded in my liking.
Ok...over to more new thoughts on reasons for the "downfall".
Loin
Post by Ali Rashid
Shashi-bhai,
Well said, I agree with most of your analysis (as well as what
others
Post by Ali Rashid
have written), but I don't think SJ were on their way out around
the
Post by Ali Rashid
time of Teesri Manzil. They were as prolific as ever, and they
followed up Pancham's TM score with "An Evening In Paris" the
following year.
With the great strides LP were making in the late sixties, as
well
Post by shashirao
as
Post by Ali Rashid
Pancham's big bang with TM (and his follow-up albums), SJ still
remained excellent and very prolific right up until Jai's death in
71. Most of SJ's banners went to Pancham after Jai's passing
away,
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
and it was only fitting, from two genius composers to another
genius
Post by Ali Rashid
composer. SJ had around 35 odd productions lined up around 1971
(from
Post by Ali Rashid
what I have read), and had Jai lived, in my view they would have
still continued to be great and prolific.
I wish Pancham lived to see his 1942 ALS success. He had it in
him
Post by shashirao
to
Post by Ali Rashid
compose for any decade of music. He would have surely brought back
"A creative and a versatile genius who had lots of music left in
him
Post by Ali Rashid
to again transform moribund music scenario of today's and I
believe
Post by Ali Rashid
only he could given a new direction to hindi film music died
suddenly...and a flower wilted before its full blossom."
I think Rajesh Roshan is now the only composer who can bring back
the
Post by Ali Rashid
melody days. However I have no idea what has happened to his
overall
Post by Ali Rashid
music, its no where close to what he composed before.
Regards
Ali
Post by shashirao
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or
make
Post by shashirao
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of the
60s
Post by shashirao
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with
Teesri
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For
this
Post by Ali Rashid
he
Post by shashirao
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt
Pancham
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
more than succeeded.
As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his
harmonium
Post by Ali Rashid
to
Post by shashirao
Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing to
all
Post by shashirao
producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready to
replace Shanker-Jaikishan.
SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were on
their way out - but long ways from extinction.
However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked with
Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.
Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.
2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi
Kapoor -
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor
did
Post by Ali Rashid
he
Post by shashirao
exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.
Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood
continued
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till
Nauker.
Post by shashirao
Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and
Mohd
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2
fantastic
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for
Bikramjeet
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in Dillagi
and
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for
Dharmendra.
Post by shashirao
Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby Deol/Karishma's
debut
Post by shashirao
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its
quite
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby
made
Post by shashirao
his debut with BARSAAT.
3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan
movie
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.
Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and
MUJHE
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
JEENE DO.
Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as
music
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.
However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for Nehle
Pe
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.
So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made
inroads
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.
4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite
amazing
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.
5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's famous
spat
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days
attempting
Post by shashirao
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with
Anurodh
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
and Chakravyuha.
Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big
movies -
Post by shashirao
and took other composers for the smaller/experimental venture.
Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler, Barsaat
Ki
Post by Ali Rashid
Ek
Post by shashirao
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash.
Shyamal
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.
Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham
losing
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
a big movie camp.
6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if
Pancham
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant
role
Post by shashirao
in
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.
Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did! Pancham
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days
including
Post by shashirao
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi
Ranjan
Post by shashirao
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.
Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the
final
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel
Darshan.
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
And
Post by shashirao
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.
Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO,
etc.
Post by Ali Rashid
as
Post by shashirao
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways
Sunjay
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no
question
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
of camp loyalties.
Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s. Gone
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of
the
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash
Ghai
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
and Yash Chopra.
Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti Films,
Bappi
Post by shashirao
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.
Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone
were
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc.
who
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners all
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary
partnerships.
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
agree.
In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in his
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with
Bollywood's
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.
And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-
film
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
music.
However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.
Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this
consultant
Post by shashirao
will require overtime rates.
Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was
unable
Post by Ali Rashid
to
Post by shashirao
Post by K
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD
for
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't
use
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the
70s,
Post by Ali Rashid
RD
Post by shashirao
Post by K
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success
of "Padosan".
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash,
taking
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti
Samanta
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal
Mitra
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol
and
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them
brilliant
Post by shashirao
Post by K
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as
a
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would
be
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where
that's
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
the
Post by shashirao
Post by K
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the
older
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie.
He
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one
finds
Post by shashirao
Post by K
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy
openings
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for
himself
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to
the
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
quality of his music.
Ketan
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Ali Rashid
2008-06-01 00:45:10 UTC
Permalink
In my view, I think Shankar faced the same fate post-Jaikishan as
Pancham did later on in his career. I've listened to several of SJ's
scores after 1971, and in my view its not as if Shankar lost his
skills or composed bad music. There are several great songs he came
out with during that time, its just that they were not appreciated or
noticed, similar to many of Pancham's songs in the 80's/90's. What
Shankar needed was one big producer to back him, to give him that
boost, in this case he was depending on RK, but it never happened.
Same with Pancham, if the NH banner had taken him for QSQT, maybe we
would have seen Pancham bounce back strongly much earlier than 1942
ALS.

Regards

Ali
Post by Ali Rashid
I understand you completely, but how about SJ's music
in "Suraj", "Love In Tokyo", "Jhuk Gaya Aasman", "Mere
Huzoor", "Mera
Post by Ali Rashid
Naam Joker", "Diwana", "Kanyadaan", Aman", all wonderful scores,
hardly any repetitive factor there. I do agree their music at times
was getting repetitive (I think most composers at one time or
another
Post by Ali Rashid
become a little repetitive, not on purpose, but it just happens due
to various factors), but they still had a lot of great music. Their
music did suffer a little due to various other factors, but had Jai
lived it would have been great having SJ in the 70's. I think its a
matter of personal choice when it comes to discussing albums.
Indeed Pancham's music in the 90's has been written off, when he did
come up with great music. Pancham's compositions (like SJ, MM, SDB,
LP etc.) always had fantastic melody. No matter how much
experimentation he did, he belonged to the "old school" of
composing,
Post by Ali Rashid
which meant melody was a hallmark of his songs.
If one listens to RR compositions of today, and compares them to his
previous songs, you won't think its the same composer. I feel he has
also lost interest in composing, we hardly see anything new or
creative from this composer who like Pancham was known for being very
creative and experimenting, having melody, besides belonging to the
previous era. His "Na tum ja no na hum" (KNPH) was kind of a
throwback to the old RR, melody, rhythm, composition wise. He has
survived the rat race, and that's great.
I just read a recent article that mentioned in the 80's, Pancham
stuck too long to the likes of Lata, Asha on the female side, and
then Kishore, Suresh, Shailendra on the male side, and he should have
used newer voices like his contemporaries. But can you blame
Pancham
Post by Ali Rashid
for being comfortable with and wanting to use these voices ?. I don't
think these newer voices would have done justice to his songs. He did
switch to newer voices after, but I don't think he made a bad
decision at all, after all singers like Lata, Asha, Kishore are
legends, and the likes of Suresh, SPB etc. were great too. How I wish
Rafi was there, we could have seen more of a "Pal do pal ka saath
hamara" or "Maine poocha chand se" (two gems from their 80's
output).
Post by Ali Rashid
I'm not really a fan of Amit Kumar, but he sang the scores of Love
Story, Romance etc. all well, Pancham gave him some faboulous
tunes.
Post by Ali Rashid
Just wishful thinking here, but maybe these songs would have gone to
Rafi (Rajendra Kumar launching his son with his own voice), the songs
would have been much better (imo), then we have Betaab, with the Rafi
clone Shabbir K, and many other songs and albums, through all this
Pancham must have been missing Rafi.
Just listening to Kishore-Lata's "Kya yahi pyar hai" (Rocky),
Sanjay
Post by Ali Rashid
Dutt received excellent music fo his launch, absolutely delightful
song.
What are your thoughts ?
Regards
Ali
Post by shashirao
Ok - I'll risk a minor digression here to respond to the SJ
comment.
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
An Evening In Paris, Budtameez, LattSaheb, Brahmachari, Prince,
etc.
Post by shashirao
were most definitely resounding hits both in terms of movie and its
music.
However they can nowhere be compared to SJ's earlier successes or
creativity. The compositions were getting repeatative, the
typical
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
usage of the large orchrestra, not many experimentations that they
were known for.
It almost seemed as if they were responding to rather than
leading
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the musical brigade. Hence my observation that they were on the
decline. They never returned to their glory days in terms of
their
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
wow factor - associated with their creativity, their range and
complexity.
LP their most loyal followers ended in similar fashion - where
barring a few Chalbaaz and Rajkumar - most of their final output
ended in repeatative cacophony. Almost as if they had lost
interest
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
in composing.
Pancham on the other had was different - because one can blindly
hate his 90s music and ignorantly write off those compositions as
blah. But the truth of the matter is - Pancham never got stuck in a
rut - sounding repeatative or jaded. In fact his 90s compositions
got more complex with liberal doses of sheer music. Some even blame
him for losing sight of melody - in favor of music and rhythm.
But I dare anyone to give me an interlude or a song pattern that
has
Post by shashirao
been repeated by Pancham. He may have used the same tune multiple
times - for instance 'Jaane Do Mujhe Jaane Do' for DPH and Yaar
Meri
Post by shashirao
Zindagi - but each song was treated different - refreshingly.
Even when his movies did not succeed - his music never got
predictable. Hence we have a Jeeva, Jeene Do or Sarphira - all
Sunjay Dutt flops - but with amazing range and astounding
compositions - something that people are still discovering and
unearthing today.
His music for any banner - be it Nasir Hussain, Brij, Shakti
Samanta, Sohanlal Kanwar - never got repeatative. This is unlike
what they were used to. Not to rake any controversies - but SJ had
got comfortable providing a predictable style for Sohanlal
Kanwar,
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Bappi Sonie or FC Mehra. Kalyanji-Anandji started sounding
repeatative for Brij. Bappi - let's not go there. LP - I guess it
didn't matter what banner - they sounded very uninspired in their
final days.
Rajesh Roshan - hmm - I can perhaps give him a backhanded
compliment - he's done a fabulous job in surviving the rat race. We
no longer hear songs from him in his inimitable style of the 80s. I
was even amazed when I heard some of the songs he made for
the "Khiladi" series or Yugpurush, Keemat, etc. Was this the same
Rajesh Roshan? So if we can compliment him for surviving - sure!
But
Post by shashirao
bring back melody - we'd better off depending on Boppi-da for
that :)
Post by shashirao
As for Pancham bringing back melody with 1942 - it is amazing when
Pancham was producing melody - no one noticed!
For instance - today I was listening to the Bangla version of 1942 -
the Rim Jhim Rim Jhim number - I was reminded of the beautiful
number from Dacait - Maine Kaha Tumne Suna - and the amazing
heart-
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
stopping interlude music which signals the arrival of rain. What a
shameful waste!
I guess a melodious album like Yaar Mera Zindagi will be forever
relegated to the ignominy of being forgetable music for an
unreleased movie.
And who noticed melody in a Namumkin or a Siyasat number. Or the
soothing tunes of 'Koi Jhankaar' and 'Pareshan Ho' in Janam Se
Pehle.
Post by shashirao
Sigh - maybe I am just outdated and jaded in my liking.
Ok...over to more new thoughts on reasons for the "downfall".
Loin
Post by Ali Rashid
Shashi-bhai,
Well said, I agree with most of your analysis (as well as what
others
Post by Ali Rashid
have written), but I don't think SJ were on their way out
around
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the
Post by Ali Rashid
time of Teesri Manzil. They were as prolific as ever, and they
followed up Pancham's TM score with "An Evening In Paris" the
following year.
With the great strides LP were making in the late sixties, as
well
Post by shashirao
as
Post by Ali Rashid
Pancham's big bang with TM (and his follow-up albums), SJ still
remained excellent and very prolific right up until Jai's death
in
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
71. Most of SJ's banners went to Pancham after Jai's passing
away,
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
and it was only fitting, from two genius composers to another
genius
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composer. SJ had around 35 odd productions lined up around 1971
(from
Post by Ali Rashid
what I have read), and had Jai lived, in my view they would have
still continued to be great and prolific.
I wish Pancham lived to see his 1942 ALS success. He had it in
him
Post by shashirao
to
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compose for any decade of music. He would have surely brought
back
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
"A creative and a versatile genius who had lots of music left in
him
Post by Ali Rashid
to again transform moribund music scenario of today's and I
believe
Post by Ali Rashid
only he could given a new direction to hindi film music died
suddenly...and a flower wilted before its full blossom."
I think Rajesh Roshan is now the only composer who can bring back
the
Post by Ali Rashid
melody days. However I have no idea what has happened to his
overall
Post by Ali Rashid
music, its no where close to what he composed before.
Regards
Ali
Post by shashirao
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or
make
Post by shashirao
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of
the
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
60s
Post by shashirao
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with
Teesri
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
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Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For
this
Post by Ali Rashid
he
Post by shashirao
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt
Pancham
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Post by shashirao
more than succeeded.
As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his
harmonium
Post by Ali Rashid
to
Post by shashirao
Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing
to
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all
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producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready
to
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Post by shashirao
replace Shanker-Jaikishan.
SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were
on
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Post by Ali Rashid
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their way out - but long ways from extinction.
However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked
with
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Post by Ali Rashid
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Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over
to
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Post by shashirao
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.
Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.
2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi
Kapoor -
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor
did
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he
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exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.
Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood
continued
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till
Nauker.
Post by shashirao
Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and
Mohd
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2
fantastic
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for
Bikramjeet
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Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in
Dillagi
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and
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Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for
Dharmendra.
Post by shashirao
Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby
Deol/Karishma's
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
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debut
Post by shashirao
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its
quite
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby
made
Post by shashirao
his debut with BARSAAT.
3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan
movie
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.
Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and
MUJHE
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
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JEENE DO.
Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as
music
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.
However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for
Nehle
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Pe
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Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.
So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made
inroads
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Post by shashirao
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.
4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite
amazing
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.
5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's
famous
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
spat
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with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days
attempting
Post by shashirao
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with
Anurodh
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
and Chakravyuha.
Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big
movies -
Post by shashirao
and took other composers for the smaller/experimental
venture.
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
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Post by shashirao
Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler,
Barsaat
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Post by shashirao
Ki
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Ek
Post by shashirao
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash.
Shyamal
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.
Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham
losing
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
a big movie camp.
6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if
Pancham
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant
role
Post by shashirao
in
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.
Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did!
Pancham
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
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Post by shashirao
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days
including
Post by shashirao
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi
Ranjan
Post by shashirao
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.
Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the
final
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel
Darshan.
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
And
Post by shashirao
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.
Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO,
etc.
Post by Ali Rashid
as
Post by shashirao
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways
Sunjay
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Post by shashirao
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no
question
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
of camp loyalties.
Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s.
Gone
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of
the
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash
Ghai
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
and Yash Chopra.
Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti
Films,
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Bappi
Post by shashirao
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.
Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone
were
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc.
who
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like
Anil
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners
all
Post by shashirao
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Post by shashirao
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary
partnerships.
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
agree.
In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in
his
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with
Bollywood's
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.
And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-
film
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
music.
However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.
Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this
consultant
Post by shashirao
will require overtime rates.
Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was
unable
Post by Ali Rashid
to
Post by shashirao
Post by K
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD
for
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He
didn't
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
use
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the
70s,
Post by Ali Rashid
RD
Post by shashirao
Post by K
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success
of "Padosan".
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash,
taking
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti
Samanta
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal
Mitra
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol
and
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them
brilliant
Post by shashirao
Post by K
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as
a
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he
would
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
be
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by
other
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or
market
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where
that's
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
the
Post by shashirao
Post by K
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the
older
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil &
Jackie.
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
He
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one
finds
Post by shashirao
Post by K
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy
openings
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for
himself
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film
music
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he
succeeded
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to
the
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
quality of his music.
Ketan
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bhagiman
2008-06-02 04:42:19 UTC
Permalink
My 2 paisas...and digressions aplenty..

I think there was definitely a downfall in Pancham towards the later stageofhis life, not as much as in his creations but in his reach to fans of his who had been created out of his pre-early 80s music. The tone, the texture, the melody, the construction all underwent a sea-change, albeit slowly and not overnight. Shashi is very right when he says that towards mid and post 80s he was concetrating more on rhythm, interludes, etc... IMHO sometimes concentrating much more on it as to get defocussed on the vocal part of the song....which is perhaps Pm fans, emanating out of hearing his music of the 60s/70s could not really gell with. This is not to take away the orchestral part of his music. While Mahaan and also to an extent Pukaar had an excellent integration of instrumentation and vocals, later that did not seem to be the case except for some stray ones which I'll mention later.

I am sorry to say this Shashi, some repetitive elements did start coming to fore in the musical sections, but without a tedious affect and very subtly for e.g. if you hear his wonderfully rendered 'Yeh Zindagi Kuch bhi nahin bas yeh mere kis kaam ki', the introductory musical arrangement reminded, at least, me of a composition leading to the like of 'Aise Na mujhe tum dekho, seene se laga loonga'...hope I aint sounding wierd here but check it out guys..indulge in iterative attempts:-) That apart, I also felt that the music he created for movies in the 80s was mostly watched in theatres which did not have the "sound" infrastructure for complementing his musical arrangements..also paradoxically I felt he did not have enough musicians (numerically) on hand, barring the most talented ones of his troupe. The CD culture was just beginning, vinyls were/ had been on their way out, and the recording quality available on cassettes left quite much to be desired. Guess all this is very necessary to understand his downfall. I, for one, used to struggle to get to hear his songs in the way they should have been in the 80s + early 90s except a stray case like Parinda and Ijaazat (which was sheer melody and not focussing too much on start ups [Ijaazat though did to a certain extent] or interludes... very mature compositions) or ALS (the CD reproduction of which was wonderful). IMHO these were some of the only movies of the late 80s and early 90s where PM brought his erstwhile melodic structure with a good balance of musical instruments and vocals. Do beg to differ:-).

Lastly , I thought RR's 'inimitable style' made a mark in the 70s and not really in the 80s. Why I say this is 'cos I would consider him almost quite a contemporary of Pm (when he was peaking). RR began with Kunwaara Baap and Julie ..progressing onto the likes of Khatta Meethha, Des Pardes, Swami, Priyatama, Yaaraana, Mr. Natwarlal etc. not, perhaps, in the right sequence of releases. IMO that was RR's most creative period as well. All of you are just right that RR's compositions are not in the same league today. As for his still being in the rat race..I have my reservations on that..which are the so many movies he is composing apart from his brother's. Maybe he had a stray Mahesh Bhatt one?!..like Kaash/ Paapa kehte hain.. in fact Kaash had shades of the old RR. Writing so much abt RR so as to piggy back on an analysis of Pm's downfall which was poles apart in transition.

And Ali Boss,

Dont wish to be personal here but I guess your statement " Pancham's compositions (like SJ, MM, SDB,
LP etc.) always had fantastic melody" was a faux pax. Is mein LP kahaan se ghus gaya bhai!:-)
cheers
manoj

----- Original Message -----
From: Ali Rashid
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:45 AM
Subject: [Pancham] Re: What was reason for his downfall?


In my view, I think Shankar faced the same fate post-Jaikishan as
Pancham did later on in his career. I've listened to several of SJ's
scores after 1971, and in my view its not as if Shankar lost his
skills or composed bad music. There are several great songs he came
out with during that time, its just that they were not appreciated or
noticed, similar to many of Pancham's songs in the 80's/90's. What
Shankar needed was one big producer to back him, to give him that
boost, in this case he was depending on RK, but it never happened.
Same with Pancham, if the NH banner had taken him for QSQT, maybe we
would have seen Pancham bounce back strongly much earlier than 1942
ALS.

Regards

Ali
I understand you completely, but how about SJ's music
in "Suraj", "Love In Tokyo", "Jhuk Gaya Aasman", "Mere
Huzoor", "Mera
Naam Joker", "Diwana", "Kanyadaan", Aman", all wonderful scores,
hardly any repetitive factor there. I do agree their music at times
was getting repetitive (I think most composers at one time or
another
become a little repetitive, not on purpose, but it just happens due
to various factors), but they still had a lot of great music. Their
music did suffer a little due to various other factors, but had Jai
lived it would have been great having SJ in the 70's. I think its a
matter of personal choice when it comes to discussing albums.
Indeed Pancham's music in the 90's has been written off, when he did
come up with great music. Pancham's compositions (like SJ, MM, SDB,
LP etc.) always had fantastic melody. No matter how much
experimentation he did, he belonged to the "old school" of
composing,
which meant melody was a hallmark of his songs.
If one listens to RR compositions of today, and compares them to his
previous songs, you won't think its the same composer. I feel he has
also lost interest in composing, we hardly see anything new or
creative from this composer who like Pancham was known for being very
creative and experimenting, having melody, besides belonging to the
previous era. His "Na tum ja no na hum" (KNPH) was kind of a
throwback to the old RR, melody, rhythm, composition wise. He has
survived the rat race, and that's great.
I just read a recent article that mentioned in the 80's, Pancham
stuck too long to the likes of Lata, Asha on the female side, and
then Kishore, Suresh, Shailendra on the male side, and he should have
used newer voices like his contemporaries. But can you blame
Pancham
for being comfortable with and wanting to use these voices ?. I don't
think these newer voices would have done justice to his songs. He did
switch to newer voices after, but I don't think he made a bad
decision at all, after all singers like Lata, Asha, Kishore are
legends, and the likes of Suresh, SPB etc. were great too. How I wish
Rafi was there, we could have seen more of a "Pal do pal ka saath
hamara" or "Maine poocha chand se" (two gems from their 80's
output).
I'm not really a fan of Amit Kumar, but he sang the scores of Love
Story, Romance etc. all well, Pancham gave him some faboulous
tunes.
Just wishful thinking here, but maybe these songs would have gone to
Rafi (Rajendra Kumar launching his son with his own voice), the songs
would have been much better (imo), then we have Betaab, with the Rafi
clone Shabbir K, and many other songs and albums, through all this
Pancham must have been missing Rafi.
Just listening to Kishore-Lata's "Kya yahi pyar hai" (Rocky),
Sanjay
Dutt received excellent music fo his launch, absolutely delightful
song.
What are your thoughts ?
Regards
Ali
Post by shashirao
Ok - I'll risk a minor digression here to respond to the SJ
comment.
Post by shashirao
An Evening In Paris, Budtameez, LattSaheb, Brahmachari, Prince,
etc.
Post by shashirao
were most definitely resounding hits both in terms of movie and its
music.
However they can nowhere be compared to SJ's earlier successes or
creativity. The compositions were getting repeatative, the
typical
Post by shashirao
usage of the large orchrestra, not many experimentations that they
were known for.
It almost seemed as if they were responding to rather than
leading
Post by shashirao
the musical brigade. Hence my observation that they were on the
decline. They never returned to their glory days in terms of
their
Post by shashirao
wow factor - associated with their creativity, their range and
complexity.
LP their most loyal followers ended in similar fashion - where
barring a few Chalbaaz and Rajkumar - most of their final output
ended in repeatative cacophony. Almost as if they had lost
interest
Post by shashirao
in composing.
Pancham on the other had was different - because one can blindly
hate his 90s music and ignorantly write off those compositions as
blah. But the truth of the matter is - Pancham never got stuck in a
rut - sounding repeatative or jaded. In fact his 90s compositions
got more complex with liberal doses of sheer music. Some even blame
him for losing sight of melody - in favor of music and rhythm.
But I dare anyone to give me an interlude or a song pattern that
has
Post by shashirao
been repeated by Pancham. He may have used the same tune multiple
times - for instance 'Jaane Do Mujhe Jaane Do' for DPH and Yaar
Meri
Post by shashirao
Zindagi - but each song was treated different - refreshingly.
Even when his movies did not succeed - his music never got
predictable. Hence we have a Jeeva, Jeene Do or Sarphira - all
Sunjay Dutt flops - but with amazing range and astounding
compositions - something that people are still discovering and
unearthing today.
His music for any banner - be it Nasir Hussain, Brij, Shakti
Samanta, Sohanlal Kanwar - never got repeatative. This is unlike
what they were used to. Not to rake any controversies - but SJ had
got comfortable providing a predictable style for Sohanlal
Kanwar,
Post by shashirao
Bappi Sonie or FC Mehra. Kalyanji-Anandji started sounding
repeatative for Brij. Bappi - let's not go there. LP - I guess it
didn't matter what banner - they sounded very uninspired in their
final days.
Rajesh Roshan - hmm - I can perhaps give him a backhanded
compliment - he's done a fabulous job in surviving the rat race. We
no longer hear songs from him in his inimitable style of the 80s. I
was even amazed when I heard some of the songs he made for
the "Khiladi" series or Yugpurush, Keemat, etc. Was this the same
Rajesh Roshan? So if we can compliment him for surviving - sure!
But
Post by shashirao
bring back melody - we'd better off depending on Boppi-da for
that :)
Post by shashirao
As for Pancham bringing back melody with 1942 - it is amazing when
Pancham was producing melody - no one noticed!
For instance - today I was listening to the Bangla version of 1942 -
the Rim Jhim Rim Jhim number - I was reminded of the beautiful
number from Dacait - Maine Kaha Tumne Suna - and the amazing
heart-
Post by shashirao
stopping interlude music which signals the arrival of rain. What a
shameful waste!
I guess a melodious album like Yaar Mera Zindagi will be forever
relegated to the ignominy of being forgetable music for an
unreleased movie.
And who noticed melody in a Namumkin or a Siyasat number. Or the
soothing tunes of 'Koi Jhankaar' and 'Pareshan Ho' in Janam Se
Pehle.
Post by shashirao
Sigh - maybe I am just outdated and jaded in my liking.
Ok...over to more new thoughts on reasons for the "downfall".
Loin
Post by Ali Rashid
Shashi-bhai,
Well said, I agree with most of your analysis (as well as what
others
Post by Ali Rashid
have written), but I don't think SJ were on their way out
around
Post by shashirao
the
Post by Ali Rashid
time of Teesri Manzil. They were as prolific as ever, and they
followed up Pancham's TM score with "An Evening In Paris" the
following year.
With the great strides LP were making in the late sixties, as
well
Post by shashirao
as
Post by Ali Rashid
Pancham's big bang with TM (and his follow-up albums), SJ still
remained excellent and very prolific right up until Jai's death
in
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
71. Most of SJ's banners went to Pancham after Jai's passing
away,
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
and it was only fitting, from two genius composers to another
genius
Post by Ali Rashid
composer. SJ had around 35 odd productions lined up around 1971
(from
Post by Ali Rashid
what I have read), and had Jai lived, in my view they would have
still continued to be great and prolific.
I wish Pancham lived to see his 1942 ALS success. He had it in
him
Post by shashirao
to
Post by Ali Rashid
compose for any decade of music. He would have surely brought
back
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
"A creative and a versatile genius who had lots of music left in
him
Post by Ali Rashid
to again transform moribund music scenario of today's and I
believe
Post by Ali Rashid
only he could given a new direction to hindi film music died
suddenly...and a flower wilted before its full blossom."
I think Rajesh Roshan is now the only composer who can bring back
the
Post by Ali Rashid
melody days. However I have no idea what has happened to his
overall
Post by Ali Rashid
music, its no where close to what he composed before.
Regards
Ali
Post by shashirao
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or
make
Post by shashirao
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of
the
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
60s
Post by shashirao
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with
Teesri
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For
this
Post by Ali Rashid
he
Post by shashirao
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt
Pancham
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more than succeeded.
As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his
harmonium
Post by Ali Rashid
to
Post by shashirao
Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing
to
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all
Post by shashirao
producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready
to
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
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replace Shanker-Jaikishan.
SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were
on
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
their way out - but long ways from extinction.
However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked
with
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.
Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.
2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi
Kapoor -
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor
did
Post by Ali Rashid
he
Post by shashirao
exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.
Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood
continued
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till
Nauker.
Post by shashirao
Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and
Mohd
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2
fantastic
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for
Bikramjeet
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in
Dillagi
Post by shashirao
and
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for
Dharmendra.
Post by shashirao
Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby
Deol/Karishma's
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
debut
Post by shashirao
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its
quite
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby
made
Post by shashirao
his debut with BARSAAT.
3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan
movie
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.
Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and
MUJHE
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
JEENE DO.
Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as
music
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.
However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for
Nehle
Post by shashirao
Pe
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.
So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made
inroads
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.
4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite
amazing
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.
5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's
famous
Post by shashirao
spat
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days
attempting
Post by shashirao
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with
Anurodh
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
and Chakravyuha.
Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big
movies -
Post by shashirao
and took other composers for the smaller/experimental
venture.
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler,
Barsaat
Post by shashirao
Ki
Post by Ali Rashid
Ek
Post by shashirao
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash.
Shyamal
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.
Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham
losing
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
a big movie camp.
6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if
Pancham
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant
role
Post by shashirao
in
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.
Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did!
Pancham
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days
including
Post by shashirao
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi
Ranjan
Post by shashirao
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.
Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the
final
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel
Darshan.
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
And
Post by shashirao
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.
Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO,
etc.
Post by Ali Rashid
as
Post by shashirao
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways
Sunjay
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no
question
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
of camp loyalties.
Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s.
Gone
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of
the
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash
Ghai
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
and Yash Chopra.
Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti
Films,
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Bappi
Post by shashirao
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.
Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone
were
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc.
who
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like
Anil
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners
all
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary
partnerships.
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
agree.
In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in
his
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with
Bollywood's
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.
And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-
film
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
music.
However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.
Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this
consultant
Post by shashirao
will require overtime rates.
Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was
unable
Post by Ali Rashid
to
Post by shashirao
Post by K
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD
for
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He
didn't
Post by shashirao
use
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the
70s,
Post by Ali Rashid
RD
Post by shashirao
Post by K
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success
of "Padosan".
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash,
taking
Post by shashirao
RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti
Samanta
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal
Mitra
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol
and
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them
brilliant
Post by shashirao
Post by K
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as
a
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he
would
Post by shashirao
be
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by
other
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or
market
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where
that's
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
the
Post by shashirao
Post by K
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the
older
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil &
Jackie.
Post by shashirao
He
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one
finds
Post by shashirao
Post by K
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy
openings
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for
himself
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film
music
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he
succeeded
Post by shashirao
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to
the
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
quality of his music.
Ketan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Ali Rashid
2008-06-02 18:45:35 UTC
Permalink
LOL Manoj-ji, I just wanted to stick LP in there for fun :). But
honestly (imo) I feel melody was also their hallmark.

Pancham and RR were similar in many ways, yet so different and
unique. They both created two outstanding multi-track songs for Asha
in 1977, "Dil sajan jalta hai" (Mukti), and "Cham cham barse ghata"
(Priyatama). These are two of my favourite Asha songs, they're both
fantastic and melodious.

Coming to another topic, we all know SDB and Roshan were good
friends. However I haven't heard anything about the relationship
between Pancham and RR, were they friends ?. Can someone please
elaborate ?.

Regards

Ali
Post by bhagiman
My 2 paisas...and digressions aplenty..
I think there was definitely a downfall in Pancham towards the
later stageofhis life, not as much as in his creations but in his
reach to fans of his who had been created out of his pre-early 80s
music. The tone, the texture, the melody, the construction all
underwent a sea-change, albeit slowly and not overnight. Shashi is
very right when he says that towards mid and post 80s he was
concetrating more on rhythm, interludes, etc... IMHO sometimes
concentrating much more on it as to get defocussed on the vocal part
of the song....which is perhaps Pm fans, emanating out of hearing his
music of the 60s/70s could not really gell with. This is not to take
away the orchestral part of his music. While Mahaan and also to an
extent Pukaar had an excellent integration of instrumentation and
vocals, later that did not seem to be the case except for some stray
ones which I'll mention later.
Post by bhagiman
I am sorry to say this Shashi, some repetitive elements did start
coming to fore in the musical sections, but without a tedious affect
and very subtly for e.g. if you hear his wonderfully rendered 'Yeh
Zindagi Kuch bhi nahin bas yeh mere kis kaam ki', the introductory
musical arrangement reminded, at least, me of a composition leading
to the like of 'Aise Na mujhe tum dekho, seene se laga loonga'...hope
I aint sounding wierd here but check it out guys..indulge in
iterative attempts:-) That apart, I also felt that the music he
created for movies in the 80s was mostly watched in theatres which
did not have the "sound" infrastructure for complementing his musical
arrangements..also paradoxically I felt he did not have enough
musicians (numerically) on hand, barring the most talented ones of
his troupe. The CD culture was just beginning, vinyls were/ had been
on their way out, and the recording quality available on cassettes
left quite much to be desired. Guess all this is very necessary to
understand his downfall. I, for one, used to struggle to get to hear
his songs in the way they should have been in the 80s + early 90s
except a stray case like Parinda and Ijaazat (which was sheer melody
and not focussing too much on start ups [Ijaazat though did to a
certain extent] or interludes... very mature compositions) or ALS
(the CD reproduction of which was wonderful). IMHO these were some of
the only movies of the late 80s and early 90s where PM brought his
erstwhile melodic structure with a good balance of musical
instruments and vocals. Do beg to differ:-).
Post by bhagiman
Lastly , I thought RR's 'inimitable style' made a mark in the 70s
and not really in the 80s. Why I say this is 'cos I would consider
him almost quite a contemporary of Pm (when he was peaking). RR began
with Kunwaara Baap and Julie ..progressing onto the likes of Khatta
Meethha, Des Pardes, Swami, Priyatama, Yaaraana, Mr. Natwarlal etc.
not, perhaps, in the right sequence of releases. IMO that was RR's
most creative period as well. All of you are just right that RR's
compositions are not in the same league today. As for his still being
in the rat race..I have my reservations on that..which are the so
many movies he is composing apart from his brother's. Maybe he had a
stray Mahesh Bhatt one?!..like Kaash/ Paapa kehte hain.. in fact
Kaash had shades of the old RR. Writing so much abt RR so as to piggy
back on an analysis of Pm's downfall which was poles apart in
transition.
Post by bhagiman
And Ali Boss,
Dont wish to be personal here but I guess your statement "
Pancham's compositions (like SJ, MM, SDB,
Post by bhagiman
LP etc.) always had fantastic melody" was a faux pax. Is mein LP
kahaan se ghus gaya bhai!:-)
Post by bhagiman
cheers
manoj
----- Original Message -----
From: Ali Rashid
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:45 AM
Subject: [Pancham] Re: What was reason for his downfall?
In my view, I think Shankar faced the same fate post-Jaikishan as
Pancham did later on in his career. I've listened to several of SJ's
scores after 1971, and in my view its not as if Shankar lost his
skills or composed bad music. There are several great songs he came
out with during that time, its just that they were not
appreciated or
Post by bhagiman
noticed, similar to many of Pancham's songs in the 80's/90's. What
Shankar needed was one big producer to back him, to give him that
boost, in this case he was depending on RK, but it never
happened.
Post by bhagiman
Same with Pancham, if the NH banner had taken him for QSQT, maybe we
would have seen Pancham bounce back strongly much earlier than 1942
ALS.
Regards
Ali
I understand you completely, but how about SJ's music
in "Suraj", "Love In Tokyo", "Jhuk Gaya Aasman", "Mere
Huzoor", "Mera
Naam Joker", "Diwana", "Kanyadaan", Aman", all wonderful
scores,
Post by bhagiman
hardly any repetitive factor there. I do agree their music at times
was getting repetitive (I think most composers at one time or
another
become a little repetitive, not on purpose, but it just happens due
to various factors), but they still had a lot of great music. Their
music did suffer a little due to various other factors, but had Jai
lived it would have been great having SJ in the 70's. I think its a
matter of personal choice when it comes to discussing albums.
Indeed Pancham's music in the 90's has been written off, when
he
Post by bhagiman
did
come up with great music. Pancham's compositions (like SJ, MM, SDB,
LP etc.) always had fantastic melody. No matter how much
experimentation he did, he belonged to the "old school" of
composing,
which meant melody was a hallmark of his songs.
If one listens to RR compositions of today, and compares them
to
Post by bhagiman
his
previous songs, you won't think its the same composer. I feel
he
Post by bhagiman
has
also lost interest in composing, we hardly see anything new or
creative from this composer who like Pancham was known for
being
Post by bhagiman
very
creative and experimenting, having melody, besides belonging to the
previous era. His "Na tum ja no na hum" (KNPH) was kind of a
throwback to the old RR, melody, rhythm, composition wise. He has
survived the rat race, and that's great.
I just read a recent article that mentioned in the 80's,
Pancham
Post by bhagiman
stuck too long to the likes of Lata, Asha on the female side, and
then Kishore, Suresh, Shailendra on the male side, and he
should
Post by bhagiman
have
used newer voices like his contemporaries. But can you blame
Pancham
for being comfortable with and wanting to use these voices ?. I
don't
think these newer voices would have done justice to his songs.
He
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did
switch to newer voices after, but I don't think he made a bad
decision at all, after all singers like Lata, Asha, Kishore are
legends, and the likes of Suresh, SPB etc. were great too. How
I
Post by bhagiman
wish
Rafi was there, we could have seen more of a "Pal do pal ka saath
hamara" or "Maine poocha chand se" (two gems from their 80's
output).
I'm not really a fan of Amit Kumar, but he sang the scores of Love
Story, Romance etc. all well, Pancham gave him some faboulous
tunes.
Just wishful thinking here, but maybe these songs would have
gone
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to
Rafi (Rajendra Kumar launching his son with his own voice), the
songs
would have been much better (imo), then we have Betaab, with
the
Post by bhagiman
Rafi
clone Shabbir K, and many other songs and albums, through all this
Pancham must have been missing Rafi.
Just listening to Kishore-Lata's "Kya yahi pyar hai" (Rocky),
Sanjay
Dutt received excellent music fo his launch, absolutely
delightful
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song.
What are your thoughts ?
Regards
Ali
Post by shashirao
Ok - I'll risk a minor digression here to respond to the SJ
comment.
Post by shashirao
An Evening In Paris, Budtameez, LattSaheb, Brahmachari,
Prince,
Post by bhagiman
etc.
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were most definitely resounding hits both in terms of movie
and
Post by bhagiman
its
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music.
However they can nowhere be compared to SJ's earlier
successes or
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creativity. The compositions were getting repeatative, the
typical
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usage of the large orchrestra, not many experimentations that
they
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were known for.
It almost seemed as if they were responding to rather than
leading
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the musical brigade. Hence my observation that they were on the
decline. They never returned to their glory days in terms of
their
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wow factor - associated with their creativity, their range and
complexity.
LP their most loyal followers ended in similar fashion -
where
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Post by shashirao
barring a few Chalbaaz and Rajkumar - most of their final output
ended in repeatative cacophony. Almost as if they had lost
interest
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in composing.
Pancham on the other had was different - because one can
blindly
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hate his 90s music and ignorantly write off those
compositions as
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blah. But the truth of the matter is - Pancham never got
stuck in
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a
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rut - sounding repeatative or jaded. In fact his 90s
compositions
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got more complex with liberal doses of sheer music. Some even
blame
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him for losing sight of melody - in favor of music and rhythm.
But I dare anyone to give me an interlude or a song pattern that
has
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been repeated by Pancham. He may have used the same tune
multiple
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times - for instance 'Jaane Do Mujhe Jaane Do' for DPH and Yaar
Meri
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Zindagi - but each song was treated different - refreshingly.
Even when his movies did not succeed - his music never got
predictable. Hence we have a Jeeva, Jeene Do or Sarphira - all
Sunjay Dutt flops - but with amazing range and astounding
compositions - something that people are still discovering and
unearthing today.
His music for any banner - be it Nasir Hussain, Brij, Shakti
Samanta, Sohanlal Kanwar - never got repeatative. This is unlike
what they were used to. Not to rake any controversies - but
SJ
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had
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got comfortable providing a predictable style for Sohanlal
Kanwar,
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Bappi Sonie or FC Mehra. Kalyanji-Anandji started sounding
repeatative for Brij. Bappi - let's not go there. LP - I
guess it
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didn't matter what banner - they sounded very uninspired in their
final days.
Rajesh Roshan - hmm - I can perhaps give him a backhanded
compliment - he's done a fabulous job in surviving the rat
race.
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We
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no longer hear songs from him in his inimitable style of the
80s.
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I
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was even amazed when I heard some of the songs he made for
the "Khiladi" series or Yugpurush, Keemat, etc. Was this the same
Rajesh Roshan? So if we can compliment him for surviving - sure!
But
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bring back melody - we'd better off depending on Boppi-da for
that :)
Post by shashirao
As for Pancham bringing back melody with 1942 - it is amazing
when
Post by shashirao
Pancham was producing melody - no one noticed!
For instance - today I was listening to the Bangla version of
1942 -
Post by shashirao
the Rim Jhim Rim Jhim number - I was reminded of the
beautiful
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number from Dacait - Maine Kaha Tumne Suna - and the amazing
heart-
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stopping interlude music which signals the arrival of rain.
What
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a
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shameful waste!
I guess a melodious album like Yaar Mera Zindagi will be
forever
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relegated to the ignominy of being forgetable music for an
unreleased movie.
And who noticed melody in a Namumkin or a Siyasat number. Or the
soothing tunes of 'Koi Jhankaar' and 'Pareshan Ho' in Janam Se
Pehle.
Post by shashirao
Sigh - maybe I am just outdated and jaded in my liking.
Ok...over to more new thoughts on reasons for the "downfall".
Loin
Post by Ali Rashid
Shashi-bhai,
Well said, I agree with most of your analysis (as well as what
others
Post by Ali Rashid
have written), but I don't think SJ were on their way out
around
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the
Post by Ali Rashid
time of Teesri Manzil. They were as prolific as ever, and they
followed up Pancham's TM score with "An Evening In Paris" the
following year.
With the great strides LP were making in the late sixties, as
well
Post by shashirao
as
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Pancham's big bang with TM (and his follow-up albums), SJ still
remained excellent and very prolific right up until Jai's death
in
Post by shashirao
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71. Most of SJ's banners went to Pancham after Jai's
passing
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away,
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and it was only fitting, from two genius composers to
another
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genius
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composer. SJ had around 35 odd productions lined up around 1971
(from
Post by Ali Rashid
what I have read), and had Jai lived, in my view they would
have
Post by shashirao
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still continued to be great and prolific.
I wish Pancham lived to see his 1942 ALS success. He had it in
him
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to
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compose for any decade of music. He would have surely
brought
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back
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"A creative and a versatile genius who had lots of music
left
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in
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him
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to again transform moribund music scenario of today's and I
believe
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only he could given a new direction to hindi film music died
suddenly...and a flower wilted before its full blossom."
I think Rajesh Roshan is now the only composer who can
bring
Post by bhagiman
back
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the
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melody days. However I have no idea what has happened to his
overall
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music, its no where close to what he composed before.
Regards
Ali
Post by shashirao
Very nice! My 2 dollars!!
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to
click
Post by bhagiman
or
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make
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an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of
the
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60s
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and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with
Teesri
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Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For
this
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he
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had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt
Pancham
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more than succeeded.
As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his
harmonium
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to
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Doordarshan..play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop
announcing
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to
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all
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producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready
to
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replace Shanker-Jaikishan.
SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were
on
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their way out - but long ways from extinction.
However very interestingly - most of the banners who
worked
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with
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Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed
over
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to
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Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.
Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.
2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with
Shammi
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Kapoor -
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since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor
did
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he
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exercise his preferences for music composers for his
movies.
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Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood
continued
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working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till
Nauker.
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Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and
Mohd
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Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2
fantastic
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breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for
Bikramjeet
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Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in
Dillagi
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and
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Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for
Dharmendra.
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Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby
Deol/Karishma's
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debut
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vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its
quite
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another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and
Bobby
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made
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his debut with BARSAAT.
3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S
Ramanathan
Post by bhagiman
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movie
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not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi
Kapoor
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had
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dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.
Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and
MUJHE
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JEENE DO.
Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as
music
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composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track
record
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of
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Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.
However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for
Nehle
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Pe
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Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.
So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made
inroads
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into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.
4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently -
quite
Post by bhagiman
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amazing
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Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like
Aap
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Ki
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Kasam and Aandhi.
5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's
famous
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spat
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with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days
attempting
Post by shashirao
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with
Anurodh
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and Chakravyuha.
Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he
decided
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to
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expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big
movies -
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and took other composers for the smaller/experimental
venture.
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Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler,
Barsaat
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Ki
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Ek
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Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash.
Shyamal
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Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.
Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of
Pancham
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losing
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a big movie camp.
6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if
Pancham
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had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a
significant
Post by bhagiman
role
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in
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the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.
Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did!
Pancham
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composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days
including
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his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi
Ranjan
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in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.
Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the
final
Post by shashirao
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days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar
Santoshi
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had
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signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be
produced
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by
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Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel
Darshan.
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And
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Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.
Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO,
etc.
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as
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examples of movies Pancham composed for till late.
Anyways
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Sunjay
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Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no
question
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of camp loyalties.
Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s.
Gone
Post by shashirao
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were the days of superstars who commanded their own
coterie
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of
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chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid
extinction of
Post by bhagiman
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the
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big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were
Subhash
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Ghai
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and Yash Chopra.
Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti
Films,
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Bappi
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Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.
Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status.
Gone
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were
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the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc.
who
Post by Ali Rashid
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travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like
Anil
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Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in
banners
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all
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across the board - making some unlikely and temporary
partnerships.
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Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would
tend
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to
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agree.
In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain
that
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Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in
his
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final days - when he was completely disenchanted with
Bollywood's
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treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.
And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV,
Concorde
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and
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Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-
film
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music.
However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.
Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this
consultant
Post by shashirao
will require overtime rates.
Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was
unable
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to
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Post by K
capture the market despite making the initial
breakthrough.
Post by bhagiman
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Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist
on
Post by bhagiman
RD
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for
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his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He
didn't
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use
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RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan'. Despite good
music
Post by bhagiman
in
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Chandan
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Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the
70s,
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RD
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hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too
went
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back
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to
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Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success
of "Padosan".
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Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om
Prakash,
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taking
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RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a
Shakti
Post by bhagiman
Post by shashirao
Samanta
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal
Mitra
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny
Deol
Post by shashirao
and
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them
brilliant
Post by shashirao
Post by K
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is
described
Post by bhagiman
as
Post by shashirao
a
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he
would
Post by shashirao
be
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts,
but
Post by bhagiman
is
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets
lazy,
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by
other
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or
market
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where
that's
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
the
Post by shashirao
Post by K
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the
older
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil &
Jackie.
Post by shashirao
He
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh.
However
Post by bhagiman
one
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
finds
Post by shashirao
Post by K
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having
lousy
Post by bhagiman
Post by shashirao
openings
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing
music to
Post by bhagiman
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for
himself
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
first, movies second. He might have been more
successful as
Post by bhagiman
a
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film
music
Post by shashirao
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he
succeeded
Post by shashirao
to
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a
testament to
Post by bhagiman
Post by shashirao
the
Post by Ali Rashid
Post by shashirao
Post by K
quality of his music.
Ketan
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Kaustubh Pingle
2008-05-31 05:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by shashirao
5. Shakti Samanta -
Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler,
it was by CVK Shastri

kcp


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sourav mazumder
2008-05-09 02:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Shyam,

Are you talking of his Bengali movie scores or Bengali Moder Songs in late 80s.

Not sure which are the compositions from latet 80s make you "shiever with pain and sorrow".


Movie wise I would agree with you to certain extent (baring the cases of Ekanta Apan, Apan Amar Apan, Ahankar, Jhankar). But in case of Bengali Modern Songs I think he delivered even till Ga Pa Ga Re Sa (1990).

Sourav
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 6:47 AM
He did not give in to the demands of time.. which was
mediocrity.. jhopdi me charpayee type songs were the craze
I think it was because people were tired of heavenyl stuff
from RD :-) and all past composers... so they needed to
change their taste a bit
On a serious note, this was gradual degradation... RDB was
not God.. he had to compromise at times, to fit the bill of
producers who had no understanding of music... and then...
what goes up has to come down someday.. no one can avoid
it..
Pancham did become bit predictable at times in the 80s, but
then... who does not? His innovative scores like Manzil
manzil bombed big time, it will obviously hit the
confidence of any composer. Finally, in LoRD's own
words.. "After some time, the output quality comes
down"; and if you follow his bengali scores in late
80s, you will shiever with pain and sorrow.
Cheers
Shyamu 
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008 11:19:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Hi,
I suppose his PR was not very good, he only wanted to give
good music, "FOR WHOM" was not a point of concern
for him.
Same is the reason for the downfall of Jatin Lalit also I
suppose (They don't even have a single film fare award
in their kitty, although they were the best after loRD).
Thanks, Pranay
Subject: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 3:03 PM
Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon had
composers copying his tunes.If only he had been a little
more dedicated he’d have left the competition far behind.
He gave his best for Dev sahab and me. There were times when
I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted an orginal
composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in front
of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune. Pancham’s
problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors
who didn’t have such a keen musical sense. And that
resulted in his downfall. However, if he’d lived longer
I’m sure he would have made a strong comeback and proved
that he wasn’t only a genius with western orchestration
but was also a master of melody like his father. 1942...A
Love Story, his last composition, proved that.
chk this for full article- http://www.screenin dia.com/old/
20020412/ fnost.html
Now to all memebers,
I consider his actual downfall was never but in the
80's.....
But are you agree with Goldie? To some extent I agree. But
what could be some other reasons?
1. He was too much westernized? We know his knowledge of
Indian classical but it could be the reason?
2. Not selective on movies or banners?
3. Not dedicated? This is as per Goldie but I didnt get
this.....what he wanted to say?
Was he casual about his work? Anyone can throw some light
on this?
4. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade
tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical
sense...This is again as per goldie and make some sense.
What could be others in your opinion?
Yogesh Patwardhan.
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Shyamtanu Banerjee
2008-05-08 12:46:03 UTC
Permalink
O mere humraaz.. the Ace KK solo.. a B class song??? look at the santooor usage alone in the 2nd interlude



----- Original Message ----
From: Anirudha Bhattacharjee <ani218122-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Thursday, 8 May, 2008 1:08:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his downfall?



Sorry, I forgot Ankhiyon ka Kajra .. but the Bangla
version is definitely ahead
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Anida,
I know at sm'other place you had mentioned GKA to
be one of your most likeable albums.Then what makes
you averse to say the song was only good 'cos it has
the Kishore Kumar effect.Also one of the song is a
recycled product, so if 'KK' (bengali) sounds good,
then whats wrong with the hindi counterpart?
SW has sung pretty well in 'Pagla Pagla' and it
has great use of bass(guitar) in the song.
All in all if GKA was a good album then how did it
become average suddenly?
Your take?
-Shankh
I like all the songs of this film except
the Suresh Wadkar solo. In
addition to Kishore solo, which is one of my
favourites, there are
two Asha B solos in this film ('Rote Rote Naina',
which I find very
soulful, and 'Jo Bhi Tu Ne Dekha', which is a very
good Mujra song (I
think:); it sounds like a Mujra song. Even if it
isn't the tune is
very hummable.) Asha B has mentioned somewhere that
'Rote Rote Naina'
is one of her favourite songs. Then there is the
KK-Asha duet
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like this
song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more
interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s,
this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this duet
has a Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has used
the tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't
remember it just now.
I don't rate the Suresh Wadkar solo very highly.
So, for me, this album is first rate (4 out of 5
songs I like a lot),
although, it won't feature in my top 10 RD albums;
but that is
because RD has spoiled me.
Ajay
Bhattacharjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but it is
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it is
certainly not among RD's best, though the mukhda
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
indeed different, starting with semblance of an
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the lines
of
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC
IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is absolutely
first
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in the
80s.
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay
Anand
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki Aawaaz
are
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the actor/director
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Post by Shankh Banerjee
____________ __
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Warm Regds...
Shankh Banerjee
Sr QA Engineer(Software)
InfoValue Computing Inc
Website: www.infovalue. com
------------ --------- --------- ---
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Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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Anirudha Bhattacharjee
2008-05-09 05:37:07 UTC
Permalink
I believe the thread should be read before passing
remarks. No body (at least in this thread) has
mentioned 'O mere Humraaz' as a B class no..

What is the reference for your comment please?
O mere humraaz.. the Ace KK solo.. a B class song???
look at the santooor usage alone in the 2nd
interlude
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Thursday, 8 May, 2008 1:08:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his
downfall?
Sorry, I forgot Ankhiyon ka Kajra .. but the Bangla
version is definitely ahead
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Anida,
I know at sm'other place you had mentioned GKA to
be one of your most likeable albums.Then what
makes
Post by Shankh Banerjee
you averse to say the song was only good 'cos it
has
Post by Shankh Banerjee
the Kishore Kumar effect.Also one of the song is a
recycled product, so if 'KK' (bengali) sounds
good,
Post by Shankh Banerjee
then whats wrong with the hindi counterpart?
SW has sung pretty well in 'Pagla Pagla' and it
has great use of bass(guitar) in the song.
All in all if GKA was a good album then how did it
become average suddenly?
Your take?
-Shankh
I like all the songs of this film except
the Suresh Wadkar solo. In
addition to Kishore solo, which is one of my
favourites, there are
two Asha B solos in this film ('Rote Rote Naina',
which I find very
soulful, and 'Jo Bhi Tu Ne Dekha', which is a very
good Mujra song (I
think:); it sounds like a Mujra song. Even if it
isn't the tune is
very hummable.) Asha B has mentioned somewhere
that
Post by Shankh Banerjee
'Rote Rote Naina'
is one of her favourite songs. Then there is the
KK-Asha duet
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like
this
Post by Shankh Banerjee
song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more
interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s,
this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this
duet
Post by Shankh Banerjee
has a Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has
used
Post by Shankh Banerjee
the tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't
remember it just now.
I don't rate the Suresh Wadkar solo very highly.
So, for me, this album is first rate (4 out of 5
songs I like a lot),
although, it won't feature in my top 10 RD albums;
but that is
because RD has spoiled me.
Ajay
Bhattacharjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but it
is
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it
is
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
certainly not among RD's best, though the mukhda
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
indeed different, starting with semblance of an
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the lines
of
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC
IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is absolutely
first
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in
the
Post by Shankh Banerjee
80s.
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay
Anand
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki
Aawaaz
Post by Shankh Banerjee
are
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the
actor/director
Post by Shankh Banerjee
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
_________ _
Post by Shankh Banerjee
____________ __
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR
8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Warm Regds...
Shankh Banerjee
Sr QA Engineer(Software)
InfoValue Computing Inc
Website: www.infovalue. com
------------ --------- --------- ---
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all
with
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
_________ _
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR
8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
__________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Shyamtanu Banerjee
2008-05-09 08:22:11 UTC
Permalink
It is from GKA, is not it?



----- Original Message ----
From: Anirudha Bhattacharjee <ani218122-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, 9 May, 2008 6:37:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his downfall?



I believe the thread should be read before passing
remarks. No body (at least in this thread) has
mentioned 'O mere Humraaz' as a B class no..

What is the reference for your comment please?
O mere humraaz.. the Ace KK solo.. a B class song???
look at the santooor usage alone in the 2nd
interlude
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Thursday, 8 May, 2008 1:08:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his
downfall?
Sorry, I forgot Ankhiyon ka Kajra .. but the Bangla
version is definitely ahead
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Anida,
I know at sm'other place you had mentioned GKA to
be one of your most likeable albums.Then what
makes
Post by Shankh Banerjee
you averse to say the song was only good 'cos it
has
Post by Shankh Banerjee
the Kishore Kumar effect.Also one of the song is a
recycled product, so if 'KK' (bengali) sounds
good,
Post by Shankh Banerjee
then whats wrong with the hindi counterpart?
SW has sung pretty well in 'Pagla Pagla' and it
has great use of bass(guitar) in the song.
All in all if GKA was a good album then how did it
become average suddenly?
Your take?
-Shankh
I like all the songs of this film except
the Suresh Wadkar solo. In
addition to Kishore solo, which is one of my
favourites, there are
two Asha B solos in this film ('Rote Rote Naina',
which I find very
soulful, and 'Jo Bhi Tu Ne Dekha', which is a very
good Mujra song (I
think:); it sounds like a Mujra song. Even if it
isn't the tune is
very hummable.) Asha B has mentioned somewhere
that
Post by Shankh Banerjee
'Rote Rote Naina'
is one of her favourite songs. Then there is the
KK-Asha duet
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like
this
Post by Shankh Banerjee
song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more
interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the 80s,
this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this
duet
Post by Shankh Banerjee
has a Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has
used
Post by Shankh Banerjee
the tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't
remember it just now.
I don't rate the Suresh Wadkar solo very highly.
So, for me, this album is first rate (4 out of 5
songs I like a lot),
although, it won't feature in my top 10 RD albums;
but that is
because RD has spoiled me.
Ajay
Bhattacharjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but it
is
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it
is
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
certainly not among RD's best, though the mukhda
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
indeed different, starting with semblance of an
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the lines
of
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC
IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is absolutely
first
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in
the
Post by Shankh Banerjee
80s.
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay
Anand
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki
Aawaaz
Post by Shankh Banerjee
are
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the
actor/director
Post by Shankh Banerjee
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
_________ _
Post by Shankh Banerjee
____________ __
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
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Post by Shankh Banerjee
Warm Regds...
Shankh Banerjee
Sr QA Engineer(Software)
InfoValue Computing Inc
Website: www.infovalue. com
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Anirudha Bhattacharjee
2008-05-09 09:15:25 UTC
Permalink
As an overall album.. not the title song.

Anyway, GKA , IMHO, was a good album by 80s standards,
but was it in the league of his better known works? I
have my reservations

To every man his own
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
It is from GKA, is not it?
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Friday, 9 May, 2008 6:37:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his
downfall?
I believe the thread should be read before passing
remarks. No body (at least in this thread) has
mentioned 'O mere Humraaz' as a B class no..
What is the reference for your comment please?
O mere humraaz.. the Ace KK solo.. a B class
song???
look at the santooor usage alone in the 2nd
interlude
----- Original Message ----
co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 8 May, 2008 1:08:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his
downfall?
Sorry, I forgot Ankhiyon ka Kajra .. but the
Bangla
version is definitely ahead
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Anida,
I know at sm'other place you had mentioned GKA
to
Post by Shankh Banerjee
be one of your most likeable albums.Then what
makes
Post by Shankh Banerjee
you averse to say the song was only good 'cos it
has
Post by Shankh Banerjee
the Kishore Kumar effect.Also one of the song is
a
Post by Shankh Banerjee
recycled product, so if 'KK' (bengali) sounds
good,
Post by Shankh Banerjee
then whats wrong with the hindi counterpart?
SW has sung pretty well in 'Pagla Pagla' and it
has great use of bass(guitar) in the song.
All in all if GKA was a good album then how did
it
Post by Shankh Banerjee
become average suddenly?
Your take?
-Shankh
I like all the songs of this film except
the Suresh Wadkar solo. In
addition to Kishore solo, which is one of my
favourites, there are
two Asha B solos in this film ('Rote Rote
Naina',
Post by Shankh Banerjee
which I find very
soulful, and 'Jo Bhi Tu Ne Dekha', which is a
very
Post by Shankh Banerjee
good Mujra song (I
think:); it sounds like a Mujra song. Even if it
isn't the tune is
very hummable.) Asha B has mentioned somewhere
that
Post by Shankh Banerjee
'Rote Rote Naina'
is one of her favourite songs. Then there is the
KK-Asha duet
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like
this
Post by Shankh Banerjee
song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more
interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the
80s,
Post by Shankh Banerjee
this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this
duet
Post by Shankh Banerjee
has a Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has
used
Post by Shankh Banerjee
the tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't
remember it just now.
I don't rate the Suresh Wadkar solo very highly.
So, for me, this album is first rate (4 out of 5
songs I like a lot),
although, it won't feature in my top 10 RD
albums;
Post by Shankh Banerjee
but that is
because RD has spoiled me.
Ajay
Bhattacharjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but
it
is
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it
is
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
certainly not among RD's best, though the
mukhda
Post by Shankh Banerjee
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
indeed different, starting with semblance of
an
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the
lines
Post by Shankh Banerjee
of
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC
IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is
absolutely
Post by Shankh Banerjee
first
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in
the
Post by Shankh Banerjee
80s.
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay
Anand
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki
Aawaaz
Post by Shankh Banerjee
are
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the
actor/director
Post by Shankh Banerjee
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
____________ _________ _________ _________
_________
_________ _
Post by Shankh Banerjee
____________ __
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR
8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Warm Regds...
Shankh Banerjee
Sr QA Engineer(Software)
InfoValue Computing Inc
Website: www.infovalue. com
------------ --------- --------- ---
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Shyamtanu Banerjee
2008-05-09 08:25:43 UTC
Permalink
I am talking of bengali movies... like Aagun, Ojana Path, Nabaab, and many others.



----- Original Message ----
From: sourav mazumder <ghachaai-/***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, 9 May, 2008 3:28:34 AM
Subject: [Pancham] His Bengali scores in late 80's


Shyam,

Are you talking of his Bengali movie scores or Bengali Moder Songs in late 80s.

Not sure which are the compositions from latet 80s make you "shiever with pain and sorrow".

Movie wise I would agree with you to certain extent (baring the cases of Ekanta Apan, Apan Amar Apan, Ahankar, Jhankar). But in case of Bengali Modern Songs I think he delivered even till Ga Pa Ga Re Sa (1990).

Sourav
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 6:47 AM
He did not give in to the demands of time.. which was
mediocrity.. jhopdi me charpayee type songs were the craze
I think it was because people were tired of heavenyl stuff
from RD :-) and all past composers... so they needed to
change their taste a bit
On a serious note, this was gradual degradation. .. RDB was
not God.. he had to compromise at times, to fit the bill of
producers who had no understanding of music... and then...
what goes up has to come down someday.. no one can avoid
it..
Pancham did become bit predictable at times in the 80s, but
then... who does not? His innovative scores like Manzil
manzil bombed big time, it will obviously hit the
confidence of any composer. Finally, in LoRD's own
words.. "After some time, the output quality comes
down"; and if you follow his bengali scores in late
80s, you will shiever with pain and sorrow.
Cheers
Shyamu 
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008 11:19:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Hi,
I suppose his PR was not very good, he only wanted to give
good music, "FOR WHOM" was not a point of concern
for him.
Same is the reason for the downfall of Jatin Lalit also I
suppose (They don't even have a single film fare award
in their kitty, although they were the best after loRD).
Thanks, Pranay
Subject: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 3:03 PM
Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon had
composers copying his tunes.If only he had been a little
more dedicated he’d have left the competition far behind.
He gave his best for Dev sahab and me. There were times when
I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted an orginal
composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in front
of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune. Pancham’s
problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors
who didn’t have such a keen musical sense. And that
resulted in his downfall. However, if he’d lived longer
I’m sure he would have made a strong comeback and proved
that he wasn’t only a genius with western orchestration
but was also a master of melody like his father. 1942...A
Love Story, his last composition, proved that.
chk this for full article- http://www.screenin dia.com/old/
20020412/ fnost.html
Now to all memebers,
I consider his actual downfall was never but in the
80's.....
But are you agree with Goldie? To some extent I agree. But
what could be some other reasons?
1. He was too much westernized? We know his knowledge of
Indian classical but it could be the reason?
2. Not selective on movies or banners?
3. Not dedicated? This is as per Goldie but I didnt get
this.....what he wanted to say?
Was he casual about his work? Anyone can throw some light
on this?
4. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade
tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical
sense...This is again as per goldie and make some sense.
What could be others in your opinion?
Yogesh Patwardhan.
------------ --------- --------- ---
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sourav mazumder
2008-05-09 20:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Shyam,

Yes I see your point. Nabab was just a disaster. Same are like Debota (baring the Ki Koare janle tumi), Akroash, Purashkar, Purushoattam, Shradhanjali etc.

I may not go to your extent to label Agun in same category. The title song is to me another close to heart cabaret by RD with superb rendition of Asha.. Victor's song (which was supposed to be sung by KK) is again has a very RDish composition. The varitey of the songs were quite good.

Ajana Path - again if you see the compositions RD is still in his typical experimental mood (as opposed to Ananda Niketan which was hyped very much at that point of time but I found the melodies were too insipid). Think of E Katha Jaantoa Ki Moan Paakhi - it was surely a RD coming back with his own twist and style, then Gharete Aashena (Amit Kumar). Then there was Bengali version of Drohi's Subha Aayee. I think what made the album not attractive is lack lusture rendation by Asha and Amit.
Subject: Re: [Pancham] His Bengali scores in late 80's
Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 4:25 AM
I am talking of bengali movies... like Aagun, Ojana Path,
Nabaab, and many others.
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Friday, 9 May, 2008 3:28:34 AM
Subject: [Pancham] His Bengali scores in late 80's
Shyam,
Are you talking of his Bengali movie scores or Bengali
Moder Songs in late 80s.
Not sure which are the compositions from latet 80s make you
"shiever with pain and sorrow".
Movie wise I would agree with you to certain extent (baring
the cases of Ekanta Apan, Apan Amar Apan, Ahankar, Jhankar).
But in case of Bengali Modern Songs I think he delivered
even till Ga Pa Ga Re Sa (1990).
Sourav
--- On Wed, 5/7/08, Shyamtanu Banerjee
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his
downfall?
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 6:47 AM
He did not give in to the demands of time.. which was
mediocrity.. jhopdi me charpayee type songs were the
craze
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
I think it was because people were tired of heavenyl
stuff
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
from RD :-) and all past composers... so they needed
to
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
change their taste a bit
On a serious note, this was gradual degradation. ..
RDB was
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
not God.. he had to compromise at times, to fit the
bill of
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
producers who had no understanding of music... and
then...
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
what goes up has to come down someday.. no one can
avoid
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
it..
Pancham did become bit predictable at times in the
80s, but
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
then... who does not? His innovative scores like
Manzil
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
manzil bombed big time, it will obviously hit the
confidence of any composer. Finally, in LoRD's
own
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
words.. "After some time, the output quality
comes
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
down"; and if you follow his bengali scores in
late
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
80s, you will shiever with pain and sorrow.
Cheers
Shyamu 
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008 11:19:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] What was reson for his
downfall?
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Hi,
I suppose his PR was not very good, he only wanted to
give
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
good music, "FOR WHOM" was not a point of
concern
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
for him.
Same is the reason for the downfall of Jatin Lalit
also I
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
suppose (They don't even have a single film fare
award
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
in their kitty, although they were the best after
loRD).
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Thanks, Pranay
Subject: [Pancham] What was reson for his downfall?
Date: Wednesday, 7 May, 2008, 3:03 PM
Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon
had
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
composers copying his tunes.If only he had been a
little
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
more dedicated he’d have left the competition far
behind.
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
He gave his best for Dev sahab and me. There were
times when
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted an orginal
composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in
front
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune.
Pancham’s
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to
directors
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
who didn’t have such a keen musical sense. And that
resulted in his downfall. However, if he’d lived
longer
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
I’m sure he would have made a strong comeback and
proved
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
that he wasn’t only a genius with western
orchestration
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
but was also a master of melody like his father.
1942...A
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Love Story, his last composition, proved that.
chk this for full article- http://www.screenin
dia.com/old/
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
20020412/ fnost.html
Now to all memebers,
I consider his actual downfall was never but in the
80's.....
But are you agree with Goldie? To some extent I agree.
But
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
what could be some other reasons?
1. He was too much westernized? We know his knowledge
of
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Indian classical but it could be the reason?
2. Not selective on movies or banners?
3. Not dedicated? This is as per Goldie but I didnt
get
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
this.....what he wanted to say?
Was he casual about his work? Anyone can throw some
light
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
on this?
4. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off
B-grade
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen
musical
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
sense...This is again as per goldie and make some
sense.
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
What could be others in your opinion?
Yogesh Patwardhan.
------------ --------- --------- ---
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with
Yahoo!
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your
favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos. yahoo.com/
groups/
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
_________ _
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
Yahoo! For Good. Give and get cool things for free,
reduce
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
waste and help our planet. Plus find hidden Yahoo!
treasure
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
http://green. yahoo.com/ uk/earth- day/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Kaustubh Pingle
2008-05-10 10:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by sourav mazumder
Victor's song (which was supposed to be sung by KK) is again has a very
RDish composition.
More details on the KK part please...thanks in advance :-)

kcp


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sourav mazumder
2008-05-10 19:34:08 UTC
Permalink
Kaustubh,

This is what I read in different magazines at that point of time (around 87-88).

KK was supposed to sing this song (Ki Koare Aasbe Din) which was supposed to get picturised on Victor Banerjee (Actor and Director of the movie) in the movie. This song was according to me one of the best male solo composed by RD in Bangla in late 80s (next one my cose to heart is Andhare kakhan Eshe in Apan Amar Apan by Amit). But unfortunately KK could not sing this sing is due to his sudden death.

The movie Aagoon was a prestigeous venture by Victor Banerjee. Apart from being his directorial attempt the movie had all stallwarts of Bengali cinema with great performance. Excellent photograhy and art direction. Obviously for the music department Victor signed up RD to get the best.

The movie bombed in the box office due to its too much Hindi movie like script with lot of actions. Did not go well with expectaion and taste of Bengali movie goers of that time.

Again in my opinion RD did deliver an above average score. Asha's rendation was superb in lullaby, cabaret, devotional song and romantic (bangla of Tere Jaisa Pagal Premi with Shailendra Singh) numbers. Then there was a situational comedy type song by KK and Shakti Thakur (a la Shaheron mein yeh shaher suna) and then this KK solo.


Regards,
Sourav
Subject: Re: [Pancham] His Bengali scores in late 80's
Date: Saturday, May 10, 2008, 6:08 AM
Post by sourav mazumder
Victor's song (which was supposed to be sung by
KK) is again has a very
Post by sourav mazumder
RDish composition.
More details on the KK part please...thanks in advance :-)
kcp
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Shyamtanu Banerjee
2008-05-09 09:40:53 UTC
Permalink
The flavour of the album is not good enough.. when it was typically paired with Shubhkaamna... but the tracks in isolation are really great.. Rote Rote Raina for example... but I guess, since we Bengali people already knew Mohuaye Jomeche and Adho Alo Chayate.. which are even better than the hindi counterparts.. IMO... we may not rate it AS HIGH as others would do, who have not heard the Bengali counterparts before.



----- Original Message ----
From: Anirudha Bhattacharjee <ani218122-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, 9 May, 2008 10:15:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his downfall?


As an overall album.. not the title song.

Anyway, GKA , IMHO, was a good album by 80s standards,
but was it in the league of his better known works? I
have my reservations

To every man his own
Post by Shyamtanu Banerjee
It is from GKA, is not it?
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Friday, 9 May, 2008 6:37:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his
downfall?
I believe the thread should be read before passing
remarks. No body (at least in this thread) has
mentioned 'O mere Humraaz' as a B class no..
What is the reference for your comment please?
O mere humraaz.. the Ace KK solo.. a B class
song???
look at the santooor usage alone in the 2nd
interlude
----- Original Message ----
co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 8 May, 2008 1:08:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Pancham] Re: What was reson for his
downfall?
Sorry, I forgot Ankhiyon ka Kajra .. but the
Bangla
version is definitely ahead
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Anida,
I know at sm'other place you had mentioned GKA
to
Post by Shankh Banerjee
be one of your most likeable albums.Then what
makes
Post by Shankh Banerjee
you averse to say the song was only good 'cos it
has
Post by Shankh Banerjee
the Kishore Kumar effect.Also one of the song is
a
Post by Shankh Banerjee
recycled product, so if 'KK' (bengali) sounds
good,
Post by Shankh Banerjee
then whats wrong with the hindi counterpart?
SW has sung pretty well in 'Pagla Pagla' and it
has great use of bass(guitar) in the song.
All in all if GKA was a good album then how did
it
Post by Shankh Banerjee
become average suddenly?
Your take?
-Shankh
I like all the songs of this film except
the Suresh Wadkar solo. In
addition to Kishore solo, which is one of my
favourites, there are
two Asha B solos in this film ('Rote Rote
Naina',
Post by Shankh Banerjee
which I find very
soulful, and 'Jo Bhi Tu Ne Dekha', which is a
very
Post by Shankh Banerjee
good Mujra song (I
think:); it sounds like a Mujra song. Even if it
isn't the tune is
very hummable.) Asha B has mentioned somewhere
that
Post by Shankh Banerjee
'Rote Rote Naina'
is one of her favourite songs. Then there is the
KK-Asha duet
(Akhiyon Ka Kajra). It took me a while to like
this
Post by Shankh Banerjee
song. When I
first heard it, I thought the Antras were more
interesting than the
Mukhda, but, like many of RD's songs from the
80s,
Post by Shankh Banerjee
this song grew
upon me over the years. I have heard that this
duet
Post by Shankh Banerjee
has a Bengali
counterpart. Also, I feel that RD somewhere has
used
Post by Shankh Banerjee
the tune of the
Antra, perhaps with minor variations, but can't
remember it just now.
I don't rate the Suresh Wadkar solo very highly.
So, for me, this album is first rate (4 out of 5
songs I like a lot),
although, it won't feature in my top 10 RD
albums;
Post by Shankh Banerjee
but that is
because RD has spoiled me.
Ajay
Bhattacharjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Is it? The title song is good, no doubt, but
it
is
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
more on a/c of Kishore's singing. As a tune it
is
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
certainly not among RD's best, though the
mukhda
Post by Shankh Banerjee
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
indeed different, starting with semblance of
an
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
evening raga, and moving to a meter in the
lines
Post by Shankh Banerjee
of
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
the antara of Kahon Kahan chale. IIRC
IMHO
Anirudha
Post by suwag11
The music of Ghungharoo Ki Awaaz is
absolutely
Post by Shankh Banerjee
first
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
rate IMO. One of
the best musical albums to have come out in
the
Post by Shankh Banerjee
80s.
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Ajay
Ofcourse this begs the question of how Vijay
Anand
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
judges his own
musical senses. The tunes of Ghungroo ki
Aawaaz
Post by Shankh Banerjee
are
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
B-grade by
Pancham's own standards, and the
actor/director
Post by Shankh Banerjee
is
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
Post by suwag11
Vijay Anand. :))
Ketan
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Post by Shankh Banerjee
____________ __
Post by Anirudha Bhattacharjee
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
Post by Shankh Banerjee
Warm Regds...
Shankh Banerjee
Sr QA Engineer(Software)
InfoValue Computing Inc
Website: www.infovalue. com
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Shyamtanu Banerjee
2008-05-30 12:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Fantastic,
Agree with you fully towards the end specially.. he was not 'fit' for film music, and he would have done much like what Yanni and others have done. May be even better, considering his range! 



----- Original Message ----
From: K <ketand-***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Thursday, 29 May, 2008 5:58:29 PM
Subject: [Pancham] Re: What was reason for his downfall?



Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was unable to
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough. Despite
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD for his
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't use RD
till his home production 'Manoranjan' . Despite good music in Chandan
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home production "Satyakam"
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the 70s, RD
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back to
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success of "Padosan".

Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash, taking RD
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti Samanta
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I believe
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal Mitra as
the original MD.

Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them brilliant
openings.

This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be overlooked
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as a
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would be the
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is unable
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy, takes
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other things.
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market himself
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where that's the
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the older
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie. He fit
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one finds
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy openings
with most of them. Wonder why?

Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to movies.
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for himself
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music albums.
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded to the
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to the
quality of his music.

Ketan




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Shyamtanu Banerjee
2008-05-30 12:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Shashi... thanks for elaborated view.. add Dard ka Rishta to Sunil Dutt productions with RD as well.
Shyamu



----- Original Message ----
From: shashirao <shashi-McdS88+M0qysTnJN9+***@public.gmane.org>
To: pancham-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, 30 May, 2008 5:58:23 AM
Subject: [Pancham] Re: What was reason for his downfall?


Very nice! My 2 dollars!!

First some disclaimers:
a) I partly agree with Shireesh that Pancham failed to click or make
an effective partnership with the heroes of the 90s.
b) Overall agree with Ketan's observations - however some of the 60s
and 80s comments provide fodder for a counter stance.

Ok...here's my first nickel:
1. Shammi Kapoor: Firstly we forget - Pancham's goal with Teesri
Manzil was to gain a foothold in the Nasir Hussain camp. For this he
had to appease the hero - Shammi Kapoor. In this attempt Pancham
more than succeeded.

As for Shammi Kapoor - I guess Pancham did not take his harmonium to
Doordarshan. .play/analyse S-J tune...and open shop announcing to all
producer/director of Shammi Kapoor movies - that he was ready to
replace Shanker-Jaikishan.

SJ were hardly a spent force during Teesri Manzil - they were on
their way out - but long ways from extinction.

However very interestingly - most of the banners who worked with
Shammi during those days - namely Shakti Samanta, Pramod
Chakravorty, FC Mehra, GP Sippy and Bappi Sonie - crossed over to
Pancham and made him their standard music composer for a long
duration.

Manoranjan was an FC Mehra production for Eagle Films.

2. Dharam-paaji - Not sure if he can be equated with Shammi Kapoor -
since he never commanded the similar level of authority - nor did he
exercise his preferences for music composers for his movies.

Chandan Ka Palna was a Mehmood production - and Mehmood continued
working with Pancham for a couple of movies after that - till Nauker.

Anyways Dharam-paaji was known for his preference for LP and Mohd
Rafi. But it is to Pancham's credit for actually making 2 fantastic
breakthru: 1. To become the resident music composer for Bikramjeet
Prod and Vijayata Films - despite Dharmendra having great to
pathetic success with LP in Pratigya, Rajesh Roshan in Dillagi and
Ravindra Jain in Meherbaani.
2. Introducing successfull Kishore Kumar as the voice for Dharmendra.

Matter of fact Pancham was signed up for Bobby Deol/Karishma' s debut
vehicle JAAN supposed to be directed by Shekhar Kapur. Its quite
another matter the directors changed, Pancham expired and Bobby made
his debut with BARSAAT.

3. Sunil Dutt - Once again PADOSAN was a Mehmood/S Ramanathan movie
not a Sunil Dutt production. Sunil Dutt like Shashi Kapoor had
dreams of making non-commercial realistic movies.

Anyways his Ajanta Films banner was founded much earlier than
PADOSAN happened. Before Padosan, Sunil Dutt had already
successfully produced YEH RAASTE HAIN PYAR KE, YAADEIN and MUJHE
JEENE DO.

Anyways Sunil Dutt movies typically had Ravi, KA and LP as music
composers. Before and After Padosan there is no track record of
Sunil Dutt movies with Pancham.

However, when Sunil Dutt decided to go commercial with his
production ventures - the first choice was Pancham - for Nehle Pe
Dehla. And to launch his son - Rocky, etc. etc.

So here too - it is commendable that Pancham actually made inroads
into the Sunil Dutt camp and became a permanent fixture.

4. J Om Prakash - this has been discussed recently - quite amazing
Pancham made inroads into LP territory to give hits like Aap Ki
Kasam and Aandhi.

5. Shakti Samanta - ANURODH was more popular for Kaka's famous spat
with Pancham. Kaka was also playing God during those days attempting
to make a superstar out of sis-in-law Simple Kapadia - with Anurodh
and Chakravyuha.

Anyways Shakti Samanta also maintained that once he decided to
expand his production house, he reserved Pancham for the big movies -
and took other composers for the smaller/experimenta l venture.

Thus we also have Pancham composing for Great Gambler, Barsaat Ki Ek
Raat - while Ravindra Jain composed for Khwab and Ayaash. Shyamal
Mitra was another example with Amanush and Anand Ashram.

Am not sure if Anurodh can be cited as an example of Pancham losing
a big movie camp.

6. Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and Sunjay Dutt: Am not sure if Pancham
had a camp. However Pancham continued playing a significant role in
the career of these 3 actors till Pancham's demise.

Pancham did not let Kumar Gaurav go. The audience did! Pancham
composed for Kumar Gaurav even during his (KG's) lean days including
his home production JURRAT, his comeback attempts with Shashi Ranjan
in SIYAASAT and BR Ishaara with SAUTELA BHAI.

Sunny Deol continued working with Pancham - in fact in the final
days of Pancham's career - Sunny Deol and Rajkumar Santoshi had
signed Pancham for 3 movies in a row. AJAY - to be produced by
Bikramjeet Singh Dehal banner, AFLAATOON - to be produced by
Rajkumar Santoshi and GHAATAK - again Santoshi. Of these only
GHAATAK got completed. The title of AJAY went to Suneel Darshan. And
Sunny Deol gave the title AFLAATOON to his favorite
director/producer Guddu Dhanoa.

Sunjay Dutt - let's see - we have JEEVA, SARPHIRA, JEENE DO, etc. as
examples of movies Pancham composed for till late. Anyways Sunjay
Dutt was not a producer during those days - so there is no question
of camp loyalties.

Anyways the 80s were different compared to the 60s and 70s. Gone
were the days of superstars who commanded their own coterie of
chamchas and movie camps. The 80s say the rapid extinction of the
big banners and camps. The only ones to survive were Subhash Ghai
and Yash Chopra.

Most others including the Sippys, Nasir Hussain, Shakti Films, Bappi
Sonier, Sohanlal Kanwar, etc. faded away.

Even the heroes could hardly boast of a superstar status. Gone were
the days of a Rajesh Khanna, Shammi Kapoor, Uttam Kumar, etc. who
travelled with complete readymade camps. We see actors like Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Aamir Khan, etc. who acted in banners all
across the board - making some unlikely and temporary partnerships.

Finally coming back to Ketan's comment on Pancham not being
interested - or not suited for Hindi Film music - I would tend to
agree.

In my recent excursions, I have found this common refrain that
Pancham was always interested in composing music without
restrictions. Matter of fact, if rumor's to be believed - in his
final days - when he was completely disenchanted with Bollywood's
treatment towards him - he had plans to compose music albums.

And looking at some of the albums he made for HMV, Concorde and
Weston, one can see him making more frequent forays into non-film
music.

However sufficient data and completed work do not exist to
substantiate any of this.

Ok...2 dollars over...any more "follow up work" from this consultant
will require overtime rates.

Loin
Post by K
Good analysis Shireesh,
Post by Shireesh Joshi
RD initial hits were with 60s heroes ¨C Shammi Kapoor,
Dharmendra, Sunil Dutt. He did spectacularly with 70s
heroes - Rajesh Khanna, Rishi/Randhir Kapoor, Amitabh,
Rakesh Roshan to name a few. And he launched or did
well with 80s heroes - Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay Dutt, Anil
Kapoor, Jackie Shroff, Sunny Deol. And he never made
ONE movie with 90s heroes - Aamir Khan, Salmaan Khan,
Shah Rukh Khan. His 90s efforts were for heroes from
70s (Rishi in Gurudev e.g.) or 80s (Jackie/Anil in
Parinda, 1942 e.g.). So I believe the moment was QSQT.
Actually what this shows is that barring the 70s, RD was unable to
capture the market despite making the initial breakthrough.
Despite
Post by K
the great music in Teesri Manzil, Shammi did not insist on RD for
his
Post by K
subsequent movies and preferred to go back to S-J. He didn't use
RD
Post by K
till his home production 'Manoranjan' . Despite good music in
Chandan
Post by K
Ka Palna, Dharmendra went to L-P for his home
production "Satyakam"
Post by K
and stayed there. Infact I would say till "Samadhi" in the 70s, RD
hardly has a big hit for Dharmendra. Sunil Dutt too went back to
Jaidev for "Reshma aur Shera" despite the success of "Padosan".
Even in the 70s, one finds an L-P loyalist as J Om Prakash, taking
RD
Post by K
for "Aap ki Kasam" but one also finds him losing a Shakti Samanta
movie "Anurodh" to L-P. Why? I am excluding Amanush which I
believe
Post by K
was a remake of the Bengali original and hence kept Shymal Mitra
as
Post by K
the original MD.
Same is the case in the 80s. He let Kumar Gaurav, Sunny Deol and
Sanjay Dutt drift out of his camp despite providing them brilliant
openings.
This lack of sustainibility may be what caused him to be
overlooked
Post by K
for newer heroes. In consulting parlance this is described as a
failure to win follow-on work. In cricketing terms, he would be
the
Post by K
equivalent of a batsman who provides brilliant starts, but is
unable
Post by K
to stay around long enough to capitalize on it. He gets lazy,
takes
Post by K
his eye of the ball, allows his mind to be diverted by other
things.
Post by K
Yes yes I know, he did not lobby or beg for favors or market
himself
Post by K
properly. All true, but then he was in a business where that's the
norm and he was the exception. He was out of sync with the older
generation of Shammi, Sunil, Dharam, as well as the younger
generation of Kumar Gaurav, Sanjay and Sunny, Anil & Jackie. He
fit
Post by K
right in with Rajesh, Randhir/Rishi and Amitabh. However one finds
that L-P, his closest competitors fit right in with all 3
generations, Dharam, Rishi and Anil despite having lousy openings
with most of them. Wonder why?
Personally I think RD was ill-suited for providing music to
movies.
Post by K
His spirit seems to be of a person who creates music for himself
first, movies second. He might have been more successful as a
composer in the western mold, coming out with non-film music
albums.
Post by K
The pressures of film-dom were his undoing. That he succeeded to
the
Post by K
measure he did was despite this, and is only a testament to the
quality of his music.
Ketan
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KISHOR JOSHI
2008-05-30 16:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear Friends,

Can somebody indicate where tickets for 26th June programme in Pune are available?

I dont want to miss this programme..

Kishor




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shashirao
2008-05-30 17:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Kishor,

Can you post such queries on the Pancham Fans group - we are
discussing "the reason for Pancham's downfall" in this thread.

Thanks
Loin
Post by Govind Maindargikar
Dear Friends,
Can somebody indicate where tickets for 26th June programme in Pune are available?
I dont want to miss this programme..
Kishor
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